A) Get.

B) Over.

C) Your.

D) Self.

Please don't skip over any points above.

There's no need to get over herself. I've been in the same predicament. I walk into a meeting in my co-ed fraternity and a creepy alumni stalks me down each time to corner me and tell me how he loves how cool technology is and "wants to see my stuff." But listening to him and my 'peers' in the programming department is like teaching my nephew to read: a long and hard process.

She's not being cocky or rude, she's simply stating facts. It truly is an isolating experience when you find it damned hard to find someone to talk to who actually understands the concepts you're discussing without copious explanations.

Kudos on an interesting and informative perspective and post Rosyna!

I suppose Rosyna's ROFLing over how people will misinterpret his post, given that 99% of visitors think he's a female... :-)

that posting was just weird. I'm studying comp sci, and we have a few females (about 10% of the people studying here), and from my experience, females are neither more nor less logical, good at programming or good at reading manuals than males.

if anything, there are a lot more really bad male programmers than female ones. I guess it's just easier for males to get through computer science tests than for females because lots of people *expect* females to be bad at programming, while nobody has such prejudices against males.

in computer science and programming, females have to be twice as good as males to get half the recognition males get.

Well,

I have to agree with the point about not finding people that "get it".... its true that 90% of male programmers and 99% of female programmers just don't get it... its not a matter of being good or bad... some female programmers are excellent at say, database design and programming, much better than me, but I am also good at C/C++, Java, VB, C#, Objective-C, Unix, Perl, etc... I can switch between different concepts, languages, environments, and am not afraid of exploring new computing concepts... as I said, its not unique to female programmers, but it just does not exists at all (as far as I can tell).... maybe its genetic!

The problem isn't male/female, it's that as a whole women don't go into the engineering professions (which Comp Sci is part of). So the women that would 'get it' if trained in the subject, are busy 'getting' other subjects instead. In my time I've known quite a few female programmers that knew what they knew dammed well, as well as male and female programmers that didn't get it at all. The females tend to drop out, but the males tend to continue. (And for those of you who don't know, I used to teach part time at the college so I knew quite a few programmers -- and being the instructor, it was easy to tell who got it and who didn't)

http://nslog.com/archives/2003/02/08/define___women_in_programming__.php

I live only about 10 miles/16 kilometers from Delphos, Ohio!

>The problem isn't male/female, it's that as a whole women don't go
>into the engineering professions

absolutely. and I think the main reason for that is that lots of people believe that women have some kind of genetic fault that keeps them from understanding engineering (right, Dude?). Fact is: there is no genetic fault, but it's still harder for females, because they have to work against everybody's expectation that they won't make it anyway. That's not easy, people implying that you're just a women all the time. even if they don't explicitly say it, like rosyna did in this article.

also, I think the fact that there are so many males makes it harder for females to enter this business because being the sole female in a team is often not easy. a girl I study with told me that she almost regreted studying computer science after taking a year off, working at a large software house. she was the only female in her team, and from day 1, the males started hitting on her, trying to date her, making explicit remarks, stuff like that. that's pretty hard and unfair (just like rosyna's article).

I'm glad I don't have to fight these prejudices. I'm glad I'm male. Not because I would be any worse if I were female, but because everybody would *think* I was worse.

Sorry Rosyna (guess I'm that much more in the dark) :-P

This is not an issue restricted to CompSci at all. I too have been told or later heard that person X found me 'difficult' or whatever, and I've realized it's generally when you make people feel stupid.

I think there is a specific approach to learning, perhaps one more inherent in engineering-esque disciplines - the ability, even the expectation to be wrong, and learn from that, not be insulted or feel put-down. Yet that's how many in society feel -- maybe there's so much negative criticism people can't recognize constructive criticism when they encounter it. Perhaps that's why parents threaten to sue schools for not giving their kids passing grades when the kid is obviously failing.

I've learned (somewhat) by now to keep my mouth shut when someone's blabbing about something they're rather clueless on, as the number of people who appreciate your "clarification" is FAR below those who consider you an asshole. So in general socializing I keep quiet about it. Technical matters, now that's different...

Rosyna's closing remark about trying hard not to make others feel stupid rings rather hollow given everything that went before about how very much more talened he/she is than anyone lese . Perhaps Rosyna needs to think more broadly about the talents people have to offer and that his might not be the only 'best' . perhaps listen a little more and talk less?

Ok, I'll be nice to some of the previous comments and not point out that they have completely missed to point of the original post.
The point is, where are the women who are "cool". Not the chicks that look good and will listen to a guy geek out. Where are the girls that are into anime more than the guys? Not Sailor Moon either. I'm talking Urisaki Doji, or Cowboy Beebop. Where are the females that look at a computer and say "tool" and mean it. Where are the girls that look at Defcon as a fun date. I knew one that lived up to these traits but have since lost track of her (where'd you go? ).
Hell, even a girl who knew how to argue the concept of biotech implants would be fun. And we know they are out there. They have to exist. Brains are not lacking in females, just common interests with us basement boy (when we were younger), computer obsessed, comic book, anime, engineering/programming, "cool stuff" nerds.
And if I could find a girl who didn't throw up her hands and say "I give up" when her computer locks up or starts acting funky I'd walk through a wall to meet her (I tried it once, didn't work out, but I think I can do it this time, it's all in the phase shift). If you got that last joke and you are a female, please respond.
The one major thing lacking in a lot of the female population is the ability to look at something that is futile, boring, or otherwise considered to be a useless thing, and be able to devote time and attention to it in a manner that suggests dementia (i.e. Grand Theft Auto 3 marathons).
So don't go telling me you understand the complaint until you've found yourself with lust in your loins only to have it dashed when that person says "huh?" or "I don't get it".

Narf.

DAQ

Playing GTA3 does indeed suggest dementia.

I'm a female Java programmer. I'm not a geek. I am good at what I do.

I think there are slight genetic predispositions between the sexes. I think males are slightly more predisposed to be single-track-minded and females slightly more predisposed to be multitaskers. Males have more of a tendency to "geek out" and get all hard over things like anime trivia. Females have more of a tendency to be interested in human beings.

I believe that while I am not as detail-oriented as some of my male counterparts, I bring something different to the table. I have a more of a gestalt view of the application I am working on and bring a creative approach that some of my more literal, linear-minded male colleages miss. In other words, I see a lot of males wasting time finding the most "elegant" way of solving a problem and showing how obscurely geeky they are. My focus is how to make the whole application better in the most efficient way possible.

Perhaps we should be open to the fact that females can be linear minded, but if they are not, appreciate the different perspective they bring which can be just as valuable.

I guess .. female *geeks*(p.s. : not ordinary average programmers) are rare because there are a *lot*(comparitively) of males in the field... guys have this cat and mouse attitude towards women(there ARE *exceptions*.. real *exceptions*..but still just *exceptions*)...

though i luv(*behind* the success of every man there is a women) to see more female geeks in the field.. i console myself by thinking.. that *sometimes* more than anything else.. i need to be *practical* :(

It is interesting how much of the blame for "not getting it" both in himself and in other people, he lays on...other people. heh.

That is ridiculous and its HIS problem.

Intolerance for people that "don't get it" is not going to help anything. So far there appears to be a weak attempt to separate himself from the element he finds distasteful by elevating himself as "better" by making himself a member of the group that "gets it". Fortunately there is plenty he can do to cultivate a better personal management style.. It would be a grave mistake to brush off collegues because there is some percieved insurmountable gap in communicating.

Becoming a superior communicator is about learning how to talk to people so they "get it" and learning how to talk and listen to them so that you also "get it". This skill appears undervalued in this rant.

Genetic bollocks!
I am a female programmer in java, jsp, php, html, xml, swing, sql, postgres psql,qmail, Unix. I have self-educated myself using ref books and resources on the web. At the moment I am taking my sun exams.

I have seen myself repeating the same learning curves that many other programmers have and will follow.

I was glade of advice and further concepts on software and design problems and in turn am glade to pass on my advice.

I do not look for peers but someone who feels the same essence of programming. People no matter what level ‘or sex’ that feel the joy when after hacking for hours hit the compile button and their class compiles and runs.

I remember when I did my first helloWorld app, which caught and inspired me and by which I always return to when learning a new language.

I have meet male’s in the industry that are lead developers because of their age and they have an average concept of a language but lack the passion / concept of hacking.

Communication and understanding with in the industry seems a greater gap than male or female hackers.

I guess... jen is right. Superior communication skills is about how one can "reach" to others not "take" from others.....

but frankly.. i would like to expres a very personal opinion. :-
I cant see much "female personality" in society. atleast in t.v. (mass media is a very powerful community cum society builder). All i see is girls in swim suites and "blondes in well u guess ...".

It was though not the case before... there were *quality* female personality reflected in t.v. series like "fx the series" in AXN.. but then.. with time... things have gone too dull... much needs to be done...

There is no use bragging.. thats a point.. but.. only if... there were some thing kwel enough.. someone with that extra talent... to prove that "see even girls got brains".... it would have been easier. I guess there are girls goood enough( imean as a programmer).. but are too "shy" to come into the limelight.

"the males started hitting on her, trying to date her, making explicit remarks, stuff like that. that's pretty hard and unfair (just like rosyna's article)."

Well ya, I probably would try and date her too seeing how hard female programmers are to find.

Hmm, I never have this problem because I don't feel I need to seek out other females for peers, my fellow male programmers do just fine! Actually I've never worked with another female who was also a programmer, but if you want female friends at work, what's wrong with being buddies with the receptionist, or the girl from the sales department?

ok, rozyna, get over yourself ( i cant repeat that enough).

quit bragging - you look silly.
No one is born with knowledge - people acquire it.
Stop thinking everyone is stupid but you. Somehow this 99% of mailes programmers who "have no clue" code successfully.
So i suddest you take a course in communications.
Genders is not the issue here - it is your own inability to communicate and treat people with respect.

I don't have too much to comment on this post, except that I agree for the most part. For those who mentioned that gender has nothing to do with learning are incorrect. Many studies proove this fact, and are more evident in the text book Gender Inclusive Game Design written by Sheri Graner Ray. She goes over the differn't aspects of learning and thought processes between male and females.

Jason,
gender does have to do with learning. however, rozyna's attitude is the root of the problem here. knowing how to communicate to people will go a long way. Rozyna self admittedly says that she makes people feel stupid. maybe she should be open minded towards people and not expect them to know it all....after all no one is born with knowledge. I am sure that rozyna does not know everything either.

so true...

Well, i agree with the guy.
Im doing comp sci t uni, females are outnumbered 10 to 1. Personally, i do think in general males do seem to be better at programming. Every female i know doing programming doesnt seem to know whats going on whereas the males read through and understand it. (the females are always struggling, require more help and ask others to help) I dont know why but its true. The mind must work differently.

They say that women are better at multitasking but i see absolutely no evidence for this, i think they are the same. Women can feed a kid and cook, etc at the same time, but so what, i can too!

BUT...
I do think women are better at the styling aspects of web development and application styling (however not the coding and technical stuff), they seem to focus on asthetics for some reason.

Generally, i think girls should try anyway, i dont mind helping girls out at uni. I think it would be better to make the ratio 1:1 instead of 10:1.
Ant...

I am a 21 year old female and I am currently studying computer science. I do not have a disadvantage in this field. I am just as great if not more creative than the males in my level. There is no "one gender" learns better than the other, it's more like each individual learns differently. I grew up doing math and puzzles and problem solving and video games, it is what I was interested in. My mind is imaginative and I am far from stupid. I could'nt give a crap what the men say about me in this field. I cannot believe there is even controversy on this topic. Yes we are out numbered, so what. I love it and i will be great one day.

There is no difference in genders, it's all in the attitude.

I'm female and I'm enrolled in my Agriscience Program at High School. But at the same time I'm taking online courses and doing Dual Enrollment at my Community College. I'm expected to be able to apply for my AA degree in Computer Science if I wish to before I graduate. I'm not the best in my classes, since I'm sitting with 18-30 year olds. But I know a heck of a lot and don't require as much assisstance as male. Its just getting pass what people tell you, you can and cannot do. I'm in the process of learning C++.

I think the reason for your attitude has a lot to do with the fact that you are 21 and you haven't been in the field long enough to meet good female programmers. I do agree that female programmers are rare. I would argue that good programmers in general are rare. I've personally met a lot of really bad male programmers.

Saying that women inherently don't "get" programming is like saying men "can't do needlework". It's not that men are any less capable of doing embroidery - you just don't meet a lot of men that do.

Anyway, as a female programmer myself, I find that my capacity for learning new languages/concepts is equal to any of my male peers. I would say that my "femaleness" gives me a different perspective on programming which can actually give me an edge over my male counterparts in some circumstances.

As for your RTFM comment, that gives me a good idea of why you're having difficulty having good conversations with your female peers. Maybe what you're interpreting as "cluelessness" is actually your female peers tuning you out because you are coming across as cocky or unhelpful.

I understand the RTFM attitude. It is basically saying "why are you bothering me with something so trivial that you could fix it just by RTFM? I've probably got my mind on something else that is far more challenging, and I don't have the time to lead you through a process that is already documented in the manual. So. go RTFM, okay?"

It sure comes off as cocky, arrogant, and impatient, doesn't it? Impatience is at the root of the problem. We haven't been taught how to teach each other. We haven't been taught how to really listen to each other either. And so, it is this impatience that is leading to a breakdown in communications, and to alot of broken relationships.

Everybody has deadlines, at school or on the job. It causes alot of unnecessary stress, expecially when the workers find out that the managers are making 4 times as much as they are, while going home early every day.

So, what is more important?

1. Getting the job done on time, being ready for the test, getting here or there on time.
2. Taking the time to show each other some repect and teaching / listening when it is requested.

Don't think that you can always have both. Many times one must give way to the other. So, which is going to give? Most people are impatient when they are under the gun. And because they've been under the gun time and time again, they eventually develop a generally impatient attitude.

Also consider that the one asking for programming advice is also displaying impatience. They didn't take the time to RTFM first. Everybody is looking for shortcuts, and RTFM doesn't always directly answer the question at hand. Many times it doesn't come close.

Also, consider that most people not only communicate poorly, they negotiate poorly.
Managers focusing so much on the customers or investors, and neglecting the workers will only lead to trouble. Many managers have poor negotiating skills because they simply don't consider everyone involved.

Who negotiates a marriage contract before getting married? How many people just "fall in love" and then go get a marriage license without knowing the legal implications? How many people just sign the mortgage contract without reading it? How many congressmen sign an 1100 page bill when they only had a few hours to read it? Who knows how that bill will affect you and me when the only people who read it are the ones who wrote it!

Yes, everyone is ignorant and thoughtless when they neglect to go RTFM or read the damn contract, or read the law. So stop whatever you are doing, take the time to RTFM, and then I'll consider stopping what I am doing and to give you some of my time.

One's impatience and thoughtlessness contributes to the RTFM attitude from others.

Well, I've given enough time to this subject, so go RTFM on communicating and negotiating!

Cheers,
Aurelius

I can totally understand the RTFM viewpoint. When I have a question about something related to programming, I've always tended to use my resources such as books, online searching, etc. before asking someone. I recognize and respect that people have other things to do, and I take pride in being able to find answers on my own. So, I don't like to bug people with questions unless I really think that a person to ask would be the best resource.

I don't mind explaining something to someone, and I actually enjoy explaining things (I feel a sense of gratification when I can help someone understand something, and it helps me understand it better too). However, there are times when people might ask a really simple question which could have been easily answered by looking in a book or searching online. As Aurelius has said, people do have deadlines.

Sometimes people can be annoying about it, too. I studied software engineering in college, and (at least in the beginning), there was one person in particular who would often come to me literally every 5-10 minutes asking me really simple questions about the C++ stuff we were doing, such as "Do you think I should use a vector or a list?". After a while, I got frustrated at having my attention broken every 5-10 minutes for simple questions when I had my own assignment to work on. If I can find an answer in a textbook or online, then so can anyone else.

amazing people, the person who wrote the article, is a guy. (I should correct him where he says "female programmers can't read", it seems most people can't xP)

I am a female programmer. I mostly do CSS & HTML in my current position, but can do PHP, Perl, SQL, XML, design, etc, etc.... I am very good at what I do. The best front end in my office, and I have only been here about 4 months.

I live in the rural south, am self taught, and I have never met another female programmer (I don't count the ones who claim to be, but source looks like jumbled mess & is not valid). I would love to meet/befriend another female programmer, if only to not feel so out of place in my chosen field... There needs to be a network or at least a facebook group...

Hey, I'm a female programmer and I'm better than all but one of the male programmers in my class. I devote lengths of time to programming random projects, and whilst the remainder of my class programs databases or projectile simulators or whatnot, I program universe simulators :P

There's really no difference between girls and guys when it comes to whose-mind-is-built-for-what, just that females are more socially slotted into artsy subjects, and have a basis isolated from the geek community of enjoying programming. Penis length =/= Programming skill, I'm pretty sure of that ;)

Ok, I'm a male programmer from Syria

Here, in general we lack that large enterprises, and in college you can see some female programmers gettin' it but when it comes to business, for a lot of reasons, girls tend to be a part of marketing, sales, even technical support but not the geeky thing. I say for female programmers that are saying it not by gender: It is by GENDER, since how can you explain the 1 to 10 the guys talked about?