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February 24, 2003
Female Programmers
I am a shallow and egotistical person. That said, I have found Female programmers be far rarer than the Bald Eagle. Especially good female programers. This isn't a sexist statement as much as it is an observation. It's really difficult for someone like me to find female programmer peers. Not so much that they don't exist, but that the ones that do exist are not exactly what I am looking for in a peer. They're either much older than me (I'm 21) and the generation gap causes many problems, or they just don't "get it". All my current peers and acquaintances "get it". They can easily go from point 'A' to point 'C' in a logical manner and skip over point 'B' because they understand it and (possibly) find it to be tedious. The female programmers I know do not always get this logical step (90% of the male programmers I know don't either). Sure, it's ok for them to need to be walked through it a few times, but after that, it's all about applied knowledge. Can something they've learned to handle one problem be transferred to another unrelated problem. That's what I look for in peers and friends alike. It's not so much the knowledge they have, it's the potential they have to learn and how quickly they can do it on their own and from other people's examples. Sure, someone in the business for 20 years may know a lot more than someone that's only been in it for 6 months but how long will it be before the newbie exceeds the veteran's abilities. What's far worse though is that a lot of female "programmers" can't read. It's all about RTFM if you can find it... I almost always RTFM if I can find it so I'm not looking to be a hypocrite here. At WWDC last year, there were practically no females whatsoever that didn't work for Apple in probably some PR, Q&A or Marketing position. I don't expect this to change this year. Erik wrote something about this topic a while back. Anywho, on the rare occurrence I do find a female programmer about my age that might have some potential do to great things, one conversation usually dashes all hopes. You know, you'll be talking about something or other and the conversation brings up a key concept and you see that look of cluelessness in her eyes (or worse, she pretends to know what you're talking about, I hate that). Still, one of the worst and best conversations I've had is the one were a high school friend in Delphos, Ohio told me I made her feel stupid. It was the worst because it hurt a lot and the best because she actually made me realize I do do that in conversations. I've tried my hardest to never do that again but I don't always succeed. C'est la vie.   Posted by rosyna at February 24, 2003 05:51 AMTrackback Pings: TrackBack URL for this entry: Related:
Comments
A) Get. B) Over. C) Your. D) Self. Please don't skip over any points above. Posted by: James Cameron Smith on February 24, 2003 8:40 AMThere's no need to get over herself. I've been in the same predicament. I walk into a meeting in my co-ed fraternity and a creepy alumni stalks me down each time to corner me and tell me how he loves how cool technology is and "wants to see my stuff." But listening to him and my 'peers' in the programming department is like teaching my nephew to read: a long and hard process. She's not being cocky or rude, she's simply stating facts. It truly is an isolating experience when you find it damned hard to find someone to talk to who actually understands the concepts you're discussing without copious explanations. Kudos on an interesting and informative perspective and post Rosyna! Posted by: Brian on February 24, 2003 9:28 AMI suppose Rosyna's ROFLing over how people will misinterpret his post, given that 99% of visitors think he's a female... :-) Posted by: Chad on February 24, 2003 10:34 AMthat posting was just weird. I'm studying comp sci, and we have a few females (about 10% of the people studying here), and from my experience, females are neither more nor less logical, good at programming or good at reading manuals than males. if anything, there are a lot more really bad male programmers than female ones. I guess it's just easier for males to get through computer science tests than for females because lots of people *expect* females to be bad at programming, while nobody has such prejudices against males. in computer science and programming, females have to be twice as good as males to get half the recognition males get. Posted by: LKM on February 24, 2003 10:45 AMWell, I have to agree with the point about not finding people that "get it".... its true that 90% of male programmers and 99% of female programmers just don't get it... its not a matter of being good or bad... some female programmers are excellent at say, database design and programming, much better than me, but I am also good at C/C++, Java, VB, C#, Objective-C, Unix, Perl, etc... I can switch between different concepts, languages, environments, and am not afraid of exploring new computing concepts... as I said, its not unique to female programmers, but it just does not exists at all (as far as I can tell).... maybe its genetic! Posted by: Dude on February 24, 2003 11:15 AMThe problem isn't male/female, it's that as a whole women don't go into the engineering professions (which Comp Sci is part of). So the women that would 'get it' if trained in the subject, are busy 'getting' other subjects instead. In my time I've known quite a few female programmers that knew what they knew dammed well, as well as male and female programmers that didn't get it at all. The females tend to drop out, but the males tend to continue. (And for those of you who don't know, I used to teach part time at the college so I knew quite a few programmers -- and being the instructor, it was easy to tell who got it and who didn't) Posted by: Rincewind on February 24, 2003 1:56 PMhttp://nslog.com/archives/2003/02/08/define___women_in_programming__.php Posted by: Erik J. Barzeski on February 24, 2003 2:27 PMI live only about 10 miles/16 kilometers from Delphos, Ohio! Posted by: Too Shy on February 24, 2003 3:03 PM>The problem isn't male/female, it's that as a whole women don't go absolutely. and I think the main reason for that is that lots of people believe that women have some kind of genetic fault that keeps them from understanding engineering (right, Dude?). Fact is: there is no genetic fault, but it's still harder for females, because they have to work against everybody's expectation that they won't make it anyway. That's not easy, people implying that you're just a women all the time. even if they don't explicitly say it, like rosyna did in this article. also, I think the fact that there are so many males makes it harder for females to enter this business because being the sole female in a team is often not easy. a girl I study with told me that she almost regreted studying computer science after taking a year off, working at a large software house. she was the only female in her team, and from day 1, the males started hitting on her, trying to date her, making explicit remarks, stuff like that. that's pretty hard and unfair (just like rosyna's article). I'm glad I don't have to fight these prejudices. I'm glad I'm male. Not because I would be any worse if I were female, but because everybody would *think* I was worse. Posted by: LKM on February 24, 2003 3:11 PMSorry Rosyna (guess I'm that much more in the dark) :-P Posted by: Brian on February 24, 2003 4:26 PMThis is not an issue restricted to CompSci at all. I too have been told or later heard that person X found me 'difficult' or whatever, and I've realized it's generally when you make people feel stupid. I think there is a specific approach to learning, perhaps one more inherent in engineering-esque disciplines - the ability, even the expectation to be wrong, and learn from that, not be insulted or feel put-down. Yet that's how many in society feel -- maybe there's so much negative criticism people can't recognize constructive criticism when they encounter it. Perhaps that's why parents threaten to sue schools for not giving their kids passing grades when the kid is obviously failing. I've learned (somewhat) by now to keep my mouth shut when someone's blabbing about something they're rather clueless on, as the number of people who appreciate your "clarification" is FAR below those who consider you an asshole. So in general socializing I keep quiet about it. Technical matters, now that's different... Posted by: tag on February 24, 2003 4:59 PMRosyna's closing remark about trying hard not to make others feel stupid rings rather hollow given everything that went before about how very much more talened he/she is than anyone lese . Perhaps Rosyna needs to think more broadly about the talents people have to offer and that his might not be the only 'best' . perhaps listen a little more and talk less? Posted by: on March 1, 2003 9:46 PMOk, I'll be nice to some of the previous comments and not point out that they have completely missed to point of the original post. Narf. DAQ Posted by: daq on March 5, 2003 5:06 PMI'm a female Java programmer. I'm not a geek. I am good at what I do. I think there are slight genetic predispositions between the sexes. I think males are slightly more predisposed to be single-track-minded and females slightly more predisposed to be multitaskers. Males have more of a tendency to "geek out" and get all hard over things like anime trivia. Females have more of a tendency to be interested in human beings. I believe that while I am not as detail-oriented as some of my male counterparts, I bring something different to the table. I have a more of a gestalt view of the application I am working on and bring a creative approach that some of my more literal, linear-minded male colleages miss. In other words, I see a lot of males wasting time finding the most "elegant" way of solving a problem and showing how obscurely geeky they are. My focus is how to make the whole application better in the most efficient way possible. Perhaps we should be open to the fact that females can be linear minded, but if they are not, appreciate the different perspective they bring which can be just as valuable. Posted by: elicia on July 10, 2003 4:02 PMI guess .. female *geeks*(p.s. : not ordinary average programmers) are rare because there are a *lot*(comparitively) of males in the field... guys have this cat and mouse attitude towards women(there ARE *exceptions*.. real *exceptions*..but still just *exceptions*)... though i luv(*behind* the success of every man there is a women) to see more female geeks in the field.. i console myself by thinking.. that *sometimes* more than anything else.. i need to be *practical* :( It is interesting how much of the blame for "not getting it" both in himself and in other people, he lays on...other people. heh. That is ridiculous and its HIS problem. Intolerance for people that "don't get it" is not going to help anything. So far there appears to be a weak attempt to separate himself from the element he finds distasteful by elevating himself as "better" by making himself a member of the group that "gets it". Fortunately there is plenty he can do to cultivate a better personal management style.. It would be a grave mistake to brush off collegues because there is some percieved insurmountable gap in communicating. Becoming a superior communicator is about learning how to talk to people so they "get it" and learning how to talk and listen to them so that you also "get it". This skill appears undervalued in this rant. Posted by: jen on April 14, 2004 2:44 PM Genetic bollocks! I have seen myself repeating the same learning curves that many other programmers have and will follow. I was glade of advice and further concepts on software and design problems and in turn am glade to pass on my advice. I do not look for peers but someone who feels the same essence of programming. People no matter what level ‘or sex’ that feel the joy when after hacking for hours hit the compile button and their class compiles and runs. I remember when I did my first helloWorld app, which caught and inspired me and by which I always return to when learning a new language. I have meet male’s in the industry that are lead developers because of their age and they have an average concept of a language but lack the passion / concept of hacking. Communication and understanding with in the industry seems a greater gap than male or female hackers.
I guess... jen is right. Superior communication skills is about how one can "reach" to others not "take" from others..... but frankly.. i would like to expres a very personal opinion. :- It was though not the case before... there were *quality* female personality reflected in t.v. series like "fx the series" in AXN.. but then.. with time... things have gone too dull... much needs to be done... There is no use bragging.. thats a point.. but.. only if... there were some thing kwel enough.. someone with that extra talent... to prove that "see even girls got brains".... it would have been easier. I guess there are girls goood enough( imean as a programmer).. but are too "shy" to come into the limelight. Posted by: codemutant on June 3, 2004 6:22 AM"the males started hitting on her, trying to date her, making explicit remarks, stuff like that. that's pretty hard and unfair (just like rosyna's article)." Well ya, I probably would try and date her too seeing how hard female programmers are to find. Posted by: some dude on July 21, 2004 1:13 AMHmm, I never have this problem because I don't feel I need to seek out other females for peers, my fellow male programmers do just fine! Actually I've never worked with another female who was also a programmer, but if you want female friends at work, what's wrong with being buddies with the receptionist, or the girl from the sales department? Posted by: Brunhilde on November 16, 2004 7:13 PMok, rozyna, get over yourself ( i cant repeat that enough). quit bragging - you look silly. I don't have too much to comment on this post, except that I agree for the most part. For those who mentioned that gender has nothing to do with learning are incorrect. Many studies proove this fact, and are more evident in the text book Gender Inclusive Game Design written by Sheri Graner Ray. She goes over the differn't aspects of learning and thought processes between male and females. Posted by: Jason Knobler on October 9, 2006 3:31 PMJason, Well, i agree with the guy. They say that women are better at multitasking but i see absolutely no evidence for this, i think they are the same. Women can feed a kid and cook, etc at the same time, but so what, i can too! BUT... Generally, i think girls should try anyway, i dont mind helping girls out at uni. I think it would be better to make the ratio 1:1 instead of 10:1. I am a 21 year old female and I am currently studying computer science. I do not have a disadvantage in this field. I am just as great if not more creative than the males in my level. There is no "one gender" learns better than the other, it's more like each individual learns differently. I grew up doing math and puzzles and problem solving and video games, it is what I was interested in. My mind is imaginative and I am far from stupid. I could'nt give a crap what the men say about me in this field. I cannot believe there is even controversy on this topic. Yes we are out numbered, so what. I love it and i will be great one day. There is no difference in genders, it's all in the attitude. I'm female and I'm enrolled in my Agriscience Program at High School. But at the same time I'm taking online courses and doing Dual Enrollment at my Community College. I'm expected to be able to apply for my AA degree in Computer Science if I wish to before I graduate. I'm not the best in my classes, since I'm sitting with 18-30 year olds. But I know a heck of a lot and don't require as much assisstance as male. Its just getting pass what people tell you, you can and cannot do. I'm in the process of learning C++. Posted by: Maddy on June 20, 2008 8:36 PMI think the reason for your attitude has a lot to do with the fact that you are 21 and you haven't been in the field long enough to meet good female programmers. I do agree that female programmers are rare. I would argue that good programmers in general are rare. I've personally met a lot of really bad male programmers. Saying that women inherently don't "get" programming is like saying men "can't do needlework". It's not that men are any less capable of doing embroidery - you just don't meet a lot of men that do. Anyway, as a female programmer myself, I find that my capacity for learning new languages/concepts is equal to any of my male peers. I would say that my "femaleness" gives me a different perspective on programming which can actually give me an edge over my male counterparts in some circumstances. As for your RTFM comment, that gives me a good idea of why you're having difficulty having good conversations with your female peers. Maybe what you're interpreting as "cluelessness" is actually your female peers tuning you out because you are coming across as cocky or unhelpful. Posted by: Female Programmer on July 25, 2008 1:37 PMKeep comments on topic. If a comment is unrelated to this post, it may be removed or moderated. |