>Note: I am not a supporter of the idea that infrequent
>or even frequent second-hand smoke can cause cancer
>in non-smokers.

Uhm... What? You're not a supporter of a proven fact?

Anyway, I'm a non-smoker, and I'm also of the opinion that smoking should be banned in public places. However, I do also believe that there must a place where smokers can smoke. I think it's okay if, say, bars are divided into a smoker part and a non-smoker part.

The reaction I get from being around smoke is not one of cancer. And some studies (even if they are funded by the tobacco industry) say that people that lived with a chain smoker for 20 years did not develop cancer. I'm basically against THAT as a reason for people to ban smoker when there are so many other reasons to ban it.

Smoke drifts. I've been to plenty of mixed smoking "restaurants" and they usually have the smoking section near the door so when you walk in, you smell the smoke.

And a bar is a public space as much as a restaurant is. There needs to be no difference made between them other than bars always have a liquor license (which should be revoked if smoking is occurring. Hmm, bartenders are liable for drunks in some states, they should be liable to buy my migraine medication.

Second hand smoke DOES kill. My grandfather worked in a Prison before they banned smoking there. He died of Lung Cancer. Do the math.

Joe

Having smoking in one part of a room is like saying that it is ok to pee in one side of a pool.

I guess you can tell that I am a non smoker.

Heck, I'm a smoker and I agree with you. Except for your statement that "smokers are highly disrespectful people", of course, because that's a blanket statement which just isn't true.

I smoke in my own car, when no one else is in it who might be bothered; or out in the street or something when no one is nearby. That's it. Not even in my own house, because of the way it makes things smell. I don't mind the smell of cigarette smoke (in fact, I've always kind of liked it), but I hate the way it smells when it lingers on things.

If I'm in someone else's house, I won't smoke. I won't even ask if it's okay. If I'm there for the weekend, I'll go the weekend without a cigarette, it's no big deal.

I like bars or clubs with a nice little cloud of cigarette smoke, it adds to the atmosphere. But I still think it ought to be banned.

I'm a non-smoker and I hate cigarette smoke, but I'm a firm believer that smoking should be allowed in bars. Since the ban in NYC, bars have been a lot worse off. I don't even like bars to begin with, but the smoking ban ruins any atmosphere that they used to have. With people going outside to smoke, then coming back in, then going back out, etc. no one has a chance to get settled. In actuallity, it probably increases the amount of smoking because when people go outside they tend to chain smoke. It hurts businesses too; being outside, people are more likely to leave earlier, and spend less money. Cigarettes are part of what makes a bar a bar, and to me the ban makes no sense. Bars without cigarettes would be like Catholicism without all the insane rules. I mean, sure, maybe it's "better", but all the character is lost.

I also can not stand second hand smoke and smokers in general. They do stink and are totally disrespectful of others. As a former Californian now transplanted in North Carolina it was culture shock to deal with smoking everywhere.

I have two big gripes, the first is in a work environment where smokers think they have some special right to take a dozen "breaks" so they can get their dam fix. The second is strictly monetary, not only do smokers destroy perfectly good experiences with their selfish addiction but it costs us a fortune. They raise the cost of health care, lower productivity, pollute our city streets and sidewalks, lower the value of property such as cars owned by smokers, businesses having to maintain two separate types of products for smoking vs. non-smoking, etc.

As I always point out to smokers I know you have a right to smoke all you want. In the privacy of your house. Since your addiction can and does impact me financially, physically and in my quality of life you can not expect me to tolerate your addiction in public.

and what about the litter of cigarette butts that get thrown all over the ground.. Litter is litter.. I hate it most when I see the inconsiderate people throw the butts out the window when driving.. Here in Seattle several brush fires have started because of that.. Now its a $150,000 fine to do just that.

If an establishment is smoking or non-smoking should be up to the business owner. I know a resturant/pub in New York that has been a haven for smokers for 20 years. Now they are going out of business.

Why not a simple sign required by state law that says "S" or "N" outside to let you know if it is smoking or non-smoking. Just like resturants that are required to show their letter grade for the resturand "A" or grade "B".

Imagine owning a bar and not being allowed to decide who frequents it. It should be my right to open a smoking club. What's the big deal? If you don't like it don't come there!

Since this reasonable solutions won't be happening anytime soon smokers should take advatage of the fact that bars usually have an outside to smoke in. I mean you do get to socialize, it's kinda fun going out on the porch, or going out front of the bar to smoke with the rest of the smokers. I've met many, many girls this way ;-)

Preach on, my friend. You hit the nail on the head.

Spoken like a person who thinks solely from a selfish point of view.

1) Second hand smoking HAS NOT been proven to cause cancer. While losing your grandfather is tragic, I am sure SOMEONE has died of lung cancer before tobacco. Cite me a single proven SCIENTIFIC (not anecdotal) study. I dare you. I, however, can cite studies that prove there is NO LINK between second hand smoke and cancer.

2) Laws passed that ban smoking in PRIVATE establishments are just wrong. Government has no right to tell private citizens ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY that they can not allow smokers. If you don't want to smell smoke in a restaurant then go to a restaurant that bans smoking. and don't say that there wouldn't be any. Of course there would. It is that 'supply/demand' thing. If enough people demand it, then someone will supply it.

It is tragic that people scream that Ashcroft and 'The Patriot Act' are eroding all of our civil rights when it allows intelligence gathering in a PUBLIC place like a mosque yet the same people cheer as the govt passes laws that remove individual rights from their own private property.

BTW, I don't smoke and think it is an expensive and nasty habit. And yes, it annoys the piss out of me when people litter with their butts.

>>Laws passed that ban smoking in PRIVATE establishments are just wrong. Government has no right to tell private citizens ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY that they can not allow smokers.

Isn't there a difference between private citizens on their own property and business establishment serving the public?

Smoking is basically a slow and legal form of suicide. It will kill you eventually. If you want to engage in an activity that will kill you slowly, do it where you won't take other people with you.

>>>>Laws passed that ban smoking in PRIVATE establishments are just wrong. Government has no right to tell private citizens ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY that they can not allow smokers.

>>Isn't there a difference between private citizens on their own property and business establishment serving the public?

What is not private is the air we all breathe. I hate having to put up with noxious fumes from crappy cars/trucks as well as smoke from anything that can be smoked. The difference with cars and trucks is that it's a problem that can be solved or curbed significantly with a check up, and it is an expected byproduct of the inefficient (gas) system we have for cars today. Additionally, the major effect of fumes from devices such as cars is that it is confined to the areas that they can travel (for the most part). Smokers can and do travel everywhere, and for me to have to breathe their deadly and worse-than-feces smelling fumes is an insult, unhealthy, and unfair to me.

A thought I just had: If someone in a city can't have a cow or some other farm animal in their backyard because it will make the place it is located and the surrounding houses smell like ass and hurt the surrounding environment, why should we have to put up with smokers and their lame activities that do the same thing?

>>and what about the litter of cigarette butts that get thrown all over the ground

Make smokers pick them up and eat them to see how horrible their habit really is. (Make people who throw their chewed gum on the ground eat it off the ground, as well.)

I've always hated smokers (for their 2nd had smoke) I can't stand having to breath in that crap, if I wanted to breath it I'd just smoke myself. I think it's rude and inconsiderate to smoke in public places. I would be for an anti-smoking law.

I posted my thoughts on my web site.

I am currently out-of-state with my Mother as the both of us await the fate of my Father who just came through massive organ failure after having heart surgery due to the medicine he was prescribed (another topic for another day). When arriving at one of the three daily visits we are allowed and attend, we are forced to walk the "gauntlet" of smokers in a area clearly designated NO SMOKING and SMOKING IS ALLOWED ONLY IN DESIGNATED AREAS -- just to enter the hospital. Yesterday, an individual lit up directly in front of the sign in an act of defiant and the signs go unheeded. Because of the Southern state my parents now reside in and who's name I will not mention to avoid any conflict, smoking and tobacco are as second nature as being American. Patients, plugged with IV's, who literally have had surgery for cancer are carting or being carted in their wheel chairs by loved ones outside of the hospital to light up a cigarette. All of which is unbelievable considering my Father is hanging on for his life. I have contacted the Hospital's Administration, but again I am in a state where tobacco and a several other illiterate practices are condoned, abound, and practiced with both an arrogance and pride.

It makes for a very depressing scene three times a day, seven days a week. I hope my Father starts improving soon so we can take him home (although the hospital tells us is can be months) this hospital does more to lessen one's life than to increase it. And yes, it is considered was of the best hospitals in the State. I miss California so much I cannot wait to return home, taking with me both my Mother and Father.

Smoking is the most useless of all the vices. It is a filthy, vulgar and vile habit that promotes acts of littering, diverts drivers attention (as does cell phone use done improperly) and detracts from any society that it starts its slow, but steady lay-to-waste symptoms.

I live in Utah, and I am attending the Univeristy of Utah, and nothing was worse than going to class. Because the smokers do not respect the rule of at least 25 feet from entrances. Instead you get to run a gauntlet of smokers to get in to your building. It is a lot better now that I am taking a more irregular class schedule, but it still can be annoying. I also totally agree with the guy who said the lingering smell is worse.

I smoke and I live in France. I support non-smoking restaurants and would frequent them happily. I support non-smoking bars, but I would not visit them as a cigarette and a beer go really well together. Both drinking and smoking are sanctioned forms of self abuse that are a few of the pleasures that nanny states haven't got round to protecting us from.

Nothing I can say, however, will convince people that are offended by smoke stop being offended. All a discussion like this will do is allow people with polar opposite views to rant at each other so I'll stop writing and not try to preach.

...and I'll not even mention the evils caused by cars, VDUs, overhead powerlines, food additives or any other health threats we have no choice in.

Live and let die and stay out of smoking establishments. It'll make life so much easier for all.

I had no problem with your argument until you updated it to rant and rave about the evils of smoking in your own car, and diesel cars. If you're bothered by the minimal amount of smoke that's passed between cars, then you're really far too sensitive. Same with diesel; I drive a diesel VW because it's cheaper to refuel, and it's generally more reliable than "normal" cars. If you don't like the smell, too bad. I've never even heard anyone else complain about it.

I also like how you call Jeremy disrespectful because you think he might drive with the windows down. It's strange, but I thought that calling him that without any basis in fact was pretty disrespectful too.

I too am among the many that dislike diesel cars in front of me (as they make me hack) and stop at least two car lengths behind one if I cannot move over to another lane to avoid being behind one. If you weight the expense of a diesel car versus a conventional car, typically the initial costs are not worth it. Most people that I know who own diesel automobiles feel they there is little to no maintenance -- not true. And there are different grades of diesel fuel that will produce less byproducts, but some of older diesel vehicle owners simply do not bother to purchase the better diesel. I am in favor and will vote for much stricter diesel emission regulations.

I believe that this argument boils down to Freedom of Choice or Rights. Unfortunately, people greatly misunderstand that with a true freedom of choice or rights comes with the requisite accountability, responsibility and NOT entitlement. As the world grows more populated and especially in the denser urban areas, the choices or freedoms that one used to have become less and less as the impact of ones actions become more and more.

Don't talk to me about cars causing pollution. I do not get migraines from car fumes I do from cigarette fumes.

So it's all about you! What about the people who ARE bothered by your car's exhaust? Do you not have enough respect for them to park your car?

Funny thing that. I don't drive. Don't own a car ;)

And plus, one thing at a time. Right now it's all about banning smoking. Once that's done it's for making more efficient cars (like hybrids). Baby steps. Baby steps. Try to enforce new regulations (as have done before) and the oil industry yells and then people start saying stuff about smoking not being banned.

So one step at a time.

Oh yeah, and I would gather cigarette smoke is much denser than car exhaust.

happily, totalitarian cretins like yourself almost always choose not to live in NYC.

so create the backwater distopia you desire out in the middle of nowhere, and let the civilized people live in NYC the way we want. you don't belong here.

(some bars here are already starting to ignore the ban. and the night of the blackout was wonderful - smoking in every bar!)

Chances are you smoke with your windows down and your cigarette is hanging out the window while you drive.

Smoking is not a Civil Right. Walking down the street without fear of being harmed from cigarette smoke is.

Not just smoke, but burning ashes, too; I'm one of the local bicyclists, as my only method of transportation, and I cannot STAND being anywhere near a car that's smoking. I carry an inhaler these days when I go out biking during the daytime, in case my asthma wakes up and goes insane because of the air pollution put out by cars -- including cars that emit cigarette smoke.

Hi Folks,
a little story: I was in SFO in March - just before the war - with a couple of Germans and Austrians. We went to an Irish Pub (Patrick's day). As, of course, these guys smoked (hey, the're German/Austrian) we went outside. The bouncers on the door told them to leave their beer inside, and then just watched as one of the local tourist workers (a.k.a. crack heads) set about hassling the guys and then took a swing at one of them. Net result - they're not coming back to SFO.
Can I recommend the same kind of tourist workers for NYC, as they're very effective in removing the smoking problem from the good burghers, permanently?

atb,
Lawrence

I quit smoking nine months ago and don't miss it! I think there is no excuse for smoking in someone else's space and that it's completely disrespectful. I've had problems with smoking neighbors and roommates as well. Smokers can control their habit and even when I smoke I took pains to be considerate of others, which other smokers apparently don't. Yeah, it's a sore spot with me, but there you are.

The real issue shouldn't be about who can smoke and where! For all you critics and closed minded people who love to jump at the chance to have control over something, such as smoking bans, I advise you look at your government. America the land of the free is becoming the land of the restricted. I do not smoke, and I agree that smoking is nasty, but so are the cars and factories and all of those fast foods that you all shove down your throats eveyday. There should be an equal way to solve smoking bans. Smokers should be able to smoke without endangering anyone else, and non smokers should be able to enjoy those same rights. Everyone seems one sided and that to me sounds like discrimination. I don't enjoy the fact that 50% of my family are obese and harming themselves but I'm not banning their food or banning my customers from eating fatty foods. Most of my relatives smoke, and I don't aprove, but I do wish that there was a seperate part of a bar or restaurant that they could sit in and enjoy their cigs, because that is what they enjoy doing. They know the risks as well as every other smoker. And incase it's lung cancer that you are concerned about, do your research. I work in a hospital and I asure you that more than 60% of my patients that have lung cancer have never smoked nor does anyone in there place of residence. So by the critics saying that we should ban smoking everywhere, start thinking about all the millions of dollars that cigarettes create and where those dollars go. I for one do not want to pay more taxes than what I already do, and if smokers want to keep buying more cigarettes and spending more money, let them. Maybe the government will start banning freedom of speech, sense it can be offensive and bad for people with anger and mental issues. The real issue should be helping each other find a solution and be a whole, united instead of against each other. We have more important things to worry about.