The thing that I thought was funny (in a completely retarded and ridiculous sort of way) is that a lot of the MacHeist critics seem to have completely missed the fact that the participating developers knew the score before they ever agreed to participate. You knew what your cut would be and you were cool with that. Sure you are not making nearly as much per sale but you are probably doing a boatload more in volume. And as you point out many of these sales may never have happened without MacHeist and if the users end up impressed with your software offering from MacHeist there is a good chance they will end up looking at and possibly purchasing more software from you. I didn't buy the bundle because I already own everything in it that I am interested in but I think it was a brilliant idea and I can't wait to see what they come up with next. My Dream App and MacHeist are just the kind of high profile events that the Mac platform and independent Mac software developers need.

I can understand getting a bit worked up about Gus' most recent post, but accusing Paul of insulting you and everyone involved in these projects? Come on. They're posting their own feelings about promotions and contests like MacZOT, My Dream App, and MacHeist. Gus may come off a bit brash, but they've got no axe to grind besides the fact that they don't feel these new kinds of promotions are valuable to them as an independent developer.

MacZOT, My Dream App, and MacHeist are all very new to the Mac arena. Maybe it's a result of the Mac becoming a little bit more popular as of late, so there are more people experimenting with new kinds of ways of marketing their applications. Of course there are going to be some people like Paul and Gus who don't like these new kinds of promotions (and, I have to admit, I count myself among them), but to characterize them as insulting you personally is a bit of a stretch.

The question of whether MacHeist or the Mac developers get the larger share of the profits is an important question. Whether it's important to you personally is not really of any consequence to Paul or Gus. If MacHeist sells a million bundles and the Mac developers still only get a flat fee from participating in the promotion, why CAN'T they complain and bitch about it? If all MacHeist does is increase their support costs without potentially increasing valuable customers, why CAN'T they complain and bitch about it?

With a promotion like MacHeist, you're necessarily getting customers who don't think your piece of software is worth the amount you're selling it for. If they thought otherwise, they'd have bought your piece of software. So to say that it's a win for you because you get some customers who might purchase upgrades in the future is dubious, since if they weren't willing to purchase your product at full price, why would they be willing to purchase the next upgrade at full price? Who's to say they won't wait for another promotion like MacHeist so they can get your upgraded application at reduced cost?

If this doesn't matter to you, that's fine. But other Mac developers don't particularly care for this kind of customer or for those kinds of costs, and they're saying that publicly. No one has said that developers who participated in MacHeist didn't know what they were getting into. They just don't think it's a good deal, and they feel like pointing that out. That's kind of what weblogging is all about.

(I honestly don't know where that silly idea came from -- of COURSE developers knew what they were getting into. How could they not? The question is not if they knew what they were getting into, but whether it is a valuable promotion. Obviously Gus and Paul think not.)

We just want to makes you get what you deserve. We just want what's best for you.

"Oh my god why won't someone think of the CHILDREN?!?!?" Geez, I thought the guys here at Usanity, DevonTech, 1Passwd, etc. were all adults capable of taking care of themselves. If they say it's cool, it's cool.

I agree with Simone - you should consider Paul's and Gus's comments in the context they were made: critiques of inanimate entities: a product, an ideology, or a specific marketing campaign. The fact that you happened to be involved in each of those doesn't automatically make the critiques personal attacks on you.

You might be particularly careful about bringing personal names and feelings into this debate. You raise the stakes by introducing personal issues, especially where you imply that the posts in question constitute some kind of sudden disloyalty to past friendships with the developers.

There is irony in the fact that you're claiming a higher moral ground while also being the first to launch personal condemnations at people, rather than organizations or ideals.

I think you might be reading too much into Gus's comments. I don't see a personal attack there, except a criticism of MacHeist and the way they marketed the promotion.

I've heard from Gus privately and it appears that I did take his comments personally when they weren't intended as such. My apologies for doing so, Gus.

I thought long and hard about including the last seven paragraphs of my post. In the end, I kept coming back to "causing the fall of the Mac" and "a fucking insult to me and all the other hard working developers out there". One or the other probably would have been fine, but both together crossed my "fight back" line.

Jason:

Does that mean that we aren't going to get to watch your Cocoa duel with Gus? Because I was really looking forward to that. :)

Honestly I think it was Gruber's "blog o' moment" Daring Fireball that really got this non sequitur argument heated up. What makes me mad is that he essentially backstabbed Philip Ryu after being allowed to be a guest judge in the MyDreamApp contest.

Jacob Rus:

Oh, the duel is still on. But it's going to involve lots of beer and limited amounts of time :)

I had not heard of unsanity before I joined macheist. Now I WILL support unsanity in the future! You have gotten at least one loyal and grateful customer.

Jason, Gus, in keeping with the whole theme of money, profit and duels I suggest you have a contest where we the "software buyers" are willing to spend our money on each of you for something you can offer to us that will 1) support your projects, 2) get us some cool piece of software and 3) (this part is CRUCIAL) will add to a "profit bucket" which is to be used towards the beer et al for the duel and possibly an indie dev roundtable. I'd be happy to donate first: ) I mean, we are talking about beer here. Right?

I admit many people win in this situation. But whether it is fair that MacHeist people get so much money is another issue.

And personally I feel it is pathetic to feel happy just because you made money. When people could have something better, they might be content already for a little bit sugar. And that's how capitalist got rich. And that's why marketing is somehow evil.

Finally, if I am any one of the developers who participated in this, I would have not joined. Instead, I will start my own "MacHeist" by contacting some other developers. In this way, although I "steal" the idea from MacHeist, but nobody could exploit developers. And other benefits could still exist.

I recently bought an iMac (yeah, the intel bit had a lot to do with it. Not to mention Parallels ...)

I found the Macheist deal while poking around for interesting freeware and shareware.

I'm not really big on themes and there's *no* way I would have even downloaded Shapeshifter to try out unless it was for the bundle. I went for the bundle as I was going to buy Delicious Library anyway, and another 10/- for the rest to try out seems like a Damn Good Deal.

SS seems like fun, and I now know about Unsanity. Sure I'll be back to see what else is interesting.

Simone wrote:
"With a promotion like MacHeist, you're necessarily getting customers who don't think your piece of software is worth the amount you're selling it for."

If you'd actually read many of the MacHeist forum comments, you'd see *lots* of those buying the bundle already had some of the apps. I, for example, paid full price for Shapeshifter (I also bought CTM) long before MacHeist was a gleam in Phil Ryu's eye.

"I honestly don't know where that silly idea came from -- of COURSE developers knew what they were getting into."

Because people like Gus and Gruber kept saying the developers where getting shafted, swindled, taken advantage of and other exploited. Smart people (and we assume these developers are smart people :-) generally don't willing let that happen to them, hence the presumption that they didn't know what they were getting into. If they did, in fact, know then they weren't shafted, then they weren't shafted.

I think they were insulting the developers involved. Basically they stated that they were idiots for taking the deal. Good for you to stand up, but then again there seems to be a new movement to a lot of ill-mannered behaviour from these bloggers- I mean look at Gruber's jackass awards, which are mean-spirited, un-mannered, and generally driving me away from reading his site. Thank god for Ars being the last bastion of great mac commentary.

It's simple. I purchase and sometimes write Mac software. In fact, I have purchased a couple of the packages listed. I have worked as a professional software developer. In fact, I still work for a software company.

For me, I am thinking about having my mother buy the package as she was considering Delicious Library, a package that I have exposed her to.

For many people, they aren't exposed to many of the applications not on store shelves. There are many new mac users (my mother included) who would benefit from this promotion. Simply put, they get a package of applications at a very good price. They may not use all of them. But, in the end, it is great exposure for the developers for not just the product listed, but also other products.

This reminds me a bit of my last neighborhood. I had a neighbor complain that one of the guys down the street. Turns out both had their houses on the market. My neighbor was asking far more for his house than he should and the neighbor sold his for less than market conditions for a quick sale. Of course this anomaly affect the comparable houses in the short term, but in reality it was a blip on the radar.

He complained and complained about this. When I put my house on the market, I priced it competitively (1K less than his) and my house sold on the 5th day. His had been on the market for over 8 months. I moved out and his house didn't have an offer.

A similar situation exists here. While this anomaly may affect some people short term, there may be other fundamental issues at play. Some developers are complaining that this promotion marginalizes their software. But how is this any different than Freeware or Open Source?

In the end, market sources will dictate how well a particular software package sells. While I may pay $49 for the 7 packages I don't own, I might not buy any of the 7 by themselves. Perhaps I haven't seen the value of them or realized they are a nice to have. Hell, I didn't even know Disco existed.

Just be thankful that a promotion like this exists to draw in more views/mindshare, more purchased software and a great way for people to get into shareware.

For those that complain, so be it. For the rest of us, Enjoy.

I agree with your opinion on the benefits of this type of promotion, but I've gotta say, If you are upset about their comments, the mature thing to do is to talk directly to them about it and ask for a retraction or a clarification.

You could also just write about how you disagree with their comments, and why you feel your involvement in these promotions was a noble choice. To publish your grievances publicly without first trying to resolve the issue privatly isn't good for anyone.

This is news to you ?

I have been reading the Mac news .. looking into good software .. etc. for about five months. Only just last week did I purchase my first Mac since the one my folks got me in 1985! I've been a hardcore Win guy since then, and until now.

I love all the cool things opening up, like MacZot, MacHeist, MDA etc. I purchased 6 apps on MacZot before I even owned a Mac! (I know, that's crazy, but I knew I was getting a Mac soon.)

The MacHeist Bundle has so many interesting apps. I only really wanted D-Library, (already MacZotted Disco) but am now checking out a bunch of other software. To tell the truth, on my PC there are several 'trial versions' of software , but all of these small dev programs are so darn good and so cheap that it is easy for me to give them my money.

I hope to see more of these MacZot-type or MacHeist-type sites that introduce me to more great apps. The Mac dev community is quite amazing, and I intend to continue supporting it!

Well put. You're diplomacy in a time of supreme annoyance shows class far beyond your peers. To put it simply...awwwwwwSNAP!

Why doesn't Gruber have comments on his blog?

Gruber doesn't do it for the feedback in comments. That, and sometimes comment threads become more of a chore than anything else. That, and the main point of "Daring Fireball" is...the daring fireballs he throws at people.

You can, however, email the guy. He's pretty responsive.

Okay, enough of the threadjack. Hey look! A new post!

"If you'd actually read many of the MacHeist forum comments, you'd see *lots* of those buying the bundle already had some of the apps. I, for example, paid full price for Shapeshifter (I also bought CTM) long before MacHeist was a gleam in Phil Ryu's eye."

But then those people were already customers, so it didn't really do anything for you anyway that they purchased your piece of software via the bundle. Yeah, you could gift those duplicate licenses, but I wonder how many people actually did that compared to the number that purchased the bundle when they already had a couple of the apps.

"Because people like Gus and Gruber kept saying the developers where getting shafted, swindled, taken advantage of and other exploited."

No. Gus and Gruber did NOT SAY the developers were getting shafted, swindled, or exploited. They were pointing out that MacHeist gets the vast majority of the profits from the bundle, NOT the developers. If developers like Unsanity or Delicious Monster decided to participate anyway, that's their choice. But Gruber or Gus or Paul didn't say anything of the sort about developers being swindled. They said they just didn't want to participate in it at the level of money they would have received -- it wasn't worth it in exchange for all the support they would have had to do for those customers.

Where is this thread of to ?

Okay, good article, and I agree 100% with the whole concept and your interpretation of it.

However, I would like to quote a line:

"It is alleged that the perceived value of all software goes down. Boolhonkay. See Exhibit One: Basic Freshman economics for more info. Invalid Claim"

Maybe "en masse" this is false, but on an individual level it can be very true. It may be an indication that many don't feel the value asked for software is a bit too high, so they don't buy at full price. When the price is lowered sufficiently, they buy, and it reaffirms their belief that you really don't need to make that much per copy sold, and thus were overcharging in the first place. Probably not a mass phenomenon, but again, it will happen to a percentage of the individuals.

Just my $0.02, and great products by the way!

I want my ShapeShifter Codes

I was thunderr AT ix . netcom . com but as you know Netcom is dead, I am nit so send me my damn codes. Oh, and I'm glade you are fin.