Pray to god this doesn't end up on an anti-Mac site.

Posted by: Steve Streza on November 29, 2004 12:24 PM

I have to agree with Rosyna, but then again I've become totally biased with the Unsanity team. However, I still love my Mac and have owned a Mac since 1984. The times they are a changin' and more and more Apple has piecemealed out the parts of the their software that make the Mac OS great. Unfortunately, it's all about money. I have never gotten of the bad taste in my mouth when Apple lead us along with .Mac and then zapped us with an annual fee...bye bye .Mac. I will leap into Tiger, which I've played with as a beta, the moment it hits the shelves. I will also upgrade (even if it means paying an upgrade fee) those little apps. that I cannot live without--including all of Unsanity's.

Posted by: CREB on November 29, 2004 1:00 PM

isn't iPhoto updated through software update to 4.0 or so? i purchased iLife (mostly for garage band), and thought the upgrades for most of the iApps were minor at best, but that was a while ago, so i might not be remembering correctly.

Posted by: janiero on November 29, 2004 1:12 PM

you've got only what you paid for...

...and it's worth the money

MaX

Posted by: MaX on November 29, 2004 1:27 PM

I almost completely disagree with Rosyna's post. I actually like it that Apple allows me to purchase the parts of the OS X experience that I want, and skip the parts I'm not interested in. I have zero interest in .mac - I'm glad I'm not forced to purchase it along with my operating system. They're not a part of the operating system - they're separate products.

I don't agree about needing Windows XP Pro. I'd use XP Pro, but I'm a professional, not a standard "home" user. Looking at the chart that compares the home and pro version, I think the stuff that's in the pro version isn't necessary for a home version, with the exception of ACL's. And even then, it'd be pretty easy to argue that home users don't need 'em.

I agree that Apple's rebate policy for iLife is lame. I don't recall the timing of the iLife release with respect to the Panther release, but the two are on different release schedules, and it may not have been feasible to put the newer versions onto the Panther CDs. They should be on them by now, of course, but then that wouldn't be fair to the early Panther adopters. Apple could improve here, but I don't think the approach they chose is particularly horrible.

I disagree about releasing iPhoto and iMovie as free downloads. It'd be nice, of course, but Apple is a business, iPhoto and iMovie are both pieces of quality software, and I think Apple is justified in charging for them. More specifically, I consider GarageBand and iDVD to be "pro-sumer" apps - if iMovie and iPhoto weren't bundled, "consumers" would have no reason to purchase the iLife package.

I agree completely regarding QuickTime Pro. Apple needs to ditch it - QuickTime should be free.

Regarding .mac, something Rosyna doesn't mention is ease-of-use and convenience. While I agree completely that it'd be nice to be able to use an arbitrary webdav server, most Mac users aren't people who are interested in setting up a webdav server, or even in knowing what webdav is. They're novice home users, and Apple provides a service by giving them an easy-to-use, integrated solution. They're justified in charging for that service.

So pretty much, all I agree with is that QT Pro sucks, and that Apple should mention more clearly that some of the stuff they advertise with OS X is not actually a part of OS X, but rather, an add-on. Can Apple improve? Absolutely! But I don't think they're doing too badly right this second, either.

Posted by: Jason Harris on November 29, 2004 3:35 PM

I'd have to say that brining up the TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) of MS Windows would imply that you *are* comparing the two, though you later insist (perhaps as an afterthought after re-reading your intro) that you are not.

Explaining how the Mac is *easier* to use once the User has spent the extra $150 or so is one thing. But why make the comparison with Windows then?

I have a difficult time believing that Windows provides similar functionality out-of-the-box as a built-up Mac system. Surely, a PC User would find that there's a whole lotta software he'd need to buy to get iLife and QT Pro functionality.

I think you wrote two articles here: one explaining the difference in TCO between Mac OS X and Windows XP [Pro], and another venting your frustrations at Apple for including code that purposely makes Mac OS X more difficult to use in order to encourage people to buy more Apple software and services.

It's my opinion that if you compared TCO between Mac OS X and Windows XP, you'd find that it costs about the same to use a PC as a Mac.

I do wholeheartedly agree with your latter point, though.

Posted by: Josh Zerin on November 29, 2004 3:47 PM

I don't think that .Mac is a requirement. I don't think you should be comparing it to windows. I think you should be comparing it to itself. Otherwise, I agree.

Posted by: Miroku Hotei on November 29, 2004 8:09 PM

1. iLife. Given that even the so-called 'free demo' versions of iMovie and iPhoto are superior to what comes with XP, I'd have to disagree.

2. .Mac. Sorry - your reasoning just doesn't make sense here....

FWIW I own both OS X Panther and Windows XP Pro. I'm fairly happy with both of them, but OS X cost me less (no, I didn't buy iLife, but even if I had, it would STILL have cost me less). I've had no need to upgrade to QT Pro. However with XP I've had to buy AV software and a system utilities package, just so that I can safely use the OS, which - using your reasoning - means that my total cost of ownership is higher than OS X, iLife and .Mac put together.

Frankly, Rosyna, you're not comparing like with like. Just because you want Apple to give you lots of free stuff, it doesn't mean that they should :-/

Posted by: Jayenn on November 29, 2004 11:54 PM

iDVD comes with OS X. It has since 10.1 AFAIK.

Your comparison to Windows has me lost.
- To legally get equivilant applications to iLife on Windows, it's going to cost way more than $50
- QT Pro costs the same on Windows
- Windows does not even offer an integrated service like .Mac for any price (3rd party services can be had for free on either platform.)

There is something fishy about Apple advertising features of OS X that you have to pay extra to get, but your points are null when taken as comparisons to Windows. The increased cost of Mac ownership has more to do with hardware than software. Especially in the OS X era.

Posted by: chad on November 30, 2004 12:17 AM

No, iDVD does not come with OS X. Never has. It comes with some macs, but not OS X.

Look here to actually see what is included with OS X and what versions: http://www.apple.com/macosx/techspecs/ Just because it came with your mac does not mean it is included with OS X.

And I was not comparing the price of OS X to Windows. I just just briefly showing the price of each.

Posted by: Rosyna on November 30, 2004 12:20 AM

Unsanity's pricing on most things is great but I do think MightyMouse and ShapeShifter should become a single application.

The nice thing about Apple though is that they give you most of the software you mentioned when you purchase a new machine. I really don't understand Quicktime Pro anymore though. I really doubt many people (well at least many professionals in the video fields) as still using it to edit and compress and reformat and whatever else you can do with it. Though with Apple integrating the movie trailers into iTunes (which is really annoying when you decide to visit the trailers site in a browser) they could be moving to phase out the Quicktime Player app in favor of an all in one solution like Windows Media Player is on Windows. I doubt it and I hope not but you never know.

Posted by: Twist on November 30, 2004 9:17 AM

I'm surprised no one's mentioned this:

I was really peeved by how Apple handled the release/sale of iChat AV. For starters, it's not bundled with iSight. Hello? With iSight, the $150 webcam? Yeah I know, it's autofocusing and really nice looking and works really well, but Apple really oughta throw us a bone and include a free download of iChat AV. I mean, C'MON. The beta was free, sure, but that's expired and doesn't work any longer. I can't tell you how embarrassing it was to explain to a Jaguar-running client that this $150 iSight they bought is pretty much useless, until they shelled out yet another $30 for iChat AV. Got another iSight for the kids on the other end? Yup, you're expected to shell out another $30 for their iChat AV copy as well.

What, not even a time-limited demo? Let it work for a month and then expire. Hell, let videoconferences last for 5 minutes before they "time out." Something?

Then Apple decided to stop selling it separately. Now it's only available as part of Panther. Great... just great. The customer just looking to videoconference is now expected to shell out $129, before even being able to test out iChat AV to see if it works for them (behind their router, with their weird network, slow DSL, whatever.) I thought the $30 price tag was bad, but wouldn't complain if it came in a shrink-wrap box recommended alongside the iSight. Nope, now you gotta upgrade your whole system.

This isn't the Apple of old with unlimited warranties and customer friendly policies... but then again, their stock price is soaring so I guess that's their bottom line.

Posted by: Josh on November 30, 2004 9:34 PM

Josh - guess what? Apple wants you to buy Panther. And for all I know, updates to iChat AV (like, say, 2.1) were Panther-only and they didn't want to make it Jaguar-compatible (and if they sold iChat AV for Jaguar still but didn't provide the updates they do on Panther, people would complain about that).

Hell, there's no reason *not* to buy Panther. Sure, it's more than iChat AV for Jaguar cost, but it's definitely worth it.

Posted by: Kevin Ballard on November 30, 2004 11:59 PM

Piece of advice to those that find the whole Mac experience too expensive: STOP UPGRADING. Stop. Now. Just stop.

You think that's a joke? It isn't. You can live with the software, and the OS you currently have for, what, 5 years? 15 years? 20? The fact that you're reading this, and have visited unsanity's site, means that this is highly unlikely. You're an upgrade junkie, like me. But the truth is this: you don't need a single update on your software or OS for potentially the rest of your life.

NOW do the math, on "how expensive Macs are."

One side note: in the mid 90s, I purchased two items:
1. a 540c laptop (9 inch screen). Cost: $5072
2. a 20" CRT screen. Cost: $2200 (Weight and size: ungodly)

In the past year, I purchased a 12" Powerbook for $1600, and two (2) 20" LCD screens for less than $1400 combined.

Current Mac'ing is expensive? Give me a break.

Posted by: scott on December 1, 2004 6:49 AM

Wow, so many reasons this article is off base, I don't even know where to start. Let's keep it simple:

1) The versions of iTunes, iPhoto, and iMovie that come with OS X -- even unupgraded -- are far superior to what comes with XP. Subtract that cost. (Not to mention that a rebate is a rebate; refusing to factor it in is silly.)

2) .Mac is not a requirement and similar services would cost money with XP, as well. Subtract that cost.

3) I somewhat agree that QuickTime Pro shouldn't cost $30, but not for the same reasons as you. Your reasoning is specious: Just because something is easy for the developer to provide doesn't mean it should be free. Plus the functionality also costs $30 on Windows. Subtract that cost.

You're left with the cost of OS X itself and you're right back where you started.

I like Unsanity's products and respect them as a company, but this rant is just that: a rant.

Posted by: md on December 1, 2004 2:52 PM

Sorry, your opinion and your products are useless.

Posted by: on December 1, 2004 3:17 PM

I understand and agree with much of your frustration. All I have to say is "irregardless" is not a word.

peet

Posted by: peet on December 1, 2004 3:35 PM

We all have a right to our opinions. I can't add much to some excellent points here, but this article sounds like whining.

To make it unanimous, I agree about Quicktime. One of my clients had purchased Quicktime Pro once, and then, some time after upgrading to OS 9, Quicktime was upgraded (to 5 I think?) and his SN for Pro was not valid for the new version. He bought it again! Huh? Apple should abandon Pro and make Quicktime fully functional.

The iChat AV and Quicktime Pro costs aside, I have had no problems with paying for iLife or the cost of OS X. I am actually glad to pay for it if it means I'll have a better product. I still like AppleWorks, but I use it less and less, to be honest. If Apple had increased the VERY modest price and added modern features (like opening any kind of file like it used to do) it would still be their number one app. I was afraid that would happen to the iApps. $50? That's NOTHING for what you get. I love GarageBand and I was able to retire SoundEdit!

OK, I am pissed about Apple renigging on "free email for life". I hated pressing the "Buy" button because I didn't have time to propagate a new email address. You know what? .Mac has saved my but so many times. I keep emergency files in the Documents folder. I transfer files to other people. I share photos. I have my email, files, calenders, and address book anywhere I go with an internet connection. My desktop and iBook at home and my G5 at work all have the same bookmarks, calenders and addresses.

I could live without it, but I won't. I resent the broken promise, but I appreciate the added value which is worth the price.

Posted by: Shawn Viland on December 1, 2004 4:03 PM

Rosyna:

I've had a dual G5 since January. It came with iDVD; it didn't come with iLife because the initial order was in December, arrived the 24th, was a total lemon and I FedExed it back to Apple for a replacement (not a repair). I bought iLife. All the updates to it have been free. I also bought the pro version of QuickTime. I've spent the same on entire productivity suites for my handheld.

Prior to this I owned a 1995 Mac 7500/100 which went through enough upgrades to get it to run Jaguar pretty well, and for far less than it would have cost to replace it.

The OS costs roughly the same as Windows, except that it's better. Factoring in the cost of .Mac is dishonest. A developer who knows what protocol OS X is using for uploading to .Mac and finds it more productive to complain instead of reverse engineering it is whining. Frustrating? Yes. For you. Me, I can VPN to my corporate server and upload what I need to just fine.

Are you and I going to pay for Apple's R&D with each major release? Yes. Don't like it? Reformat your HD, install Yellow Dog and quit bitching. My application, maintenance and upgrade cost for the last ten years has been considerably less than Windows users who had to replace their boxes at LEAST twice since 1995, to say nothing of their OS. And the only thing I skipped was OS 8 which I never missed not having.

Posted by: duanemoody on December 1, 2004 4:08 PM

About QuickTime Pro: I believe you are paying for the licences when you get the pro version, and it's the same reason the MPEG2 component isnt free: it costs apple money, that they pay out to a 3rd party.

Posted by: Jon on December 1, 2004 4:11 PM

Rosyna,
you have a long article that complains about the price of things you think should be in the whole OS. You also try to compare OS X to XP, and don't have any comparisons other than the base price. What comparable Win apps like GarageBand/iLife are there and how much do they cost?
Any computer system these days costs money. Just like most things in life, you get what you pay for. I myself feel like my Mac is a far better bargain than any PC.

Posted by: Chris Paveglio on December 1, 2004 4:19 PM

Once again, I am not comparing OS X to Windows. In no way, shape, or form.

And yet again, the only thing I am stating (except for the QT Pro portion) is that Apple is advertising features that come with OS X that do *not* come with OS X or, in the case of iLife, shipping horribly crippled versions of software that Apple knows users are not happy with (one of their kbase articles for iPhoto actually had text complaining about how slow iPhoto was) I'm not saying you have to buy them because you have to want them. I am saying that if you thought you got these things for free with OS X (as Apple repeatedly implies) then you are sorely mistaken.

And yes, irregardless is not a word. Neither is ridicularity. And FWIW, http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=irregardless

Posted by: Rosyna on December 1, 2004 5:24 PM

you forget to factor in the cost of broadband and electricity.

after all, in order to use all the advertised features of mac os x, you need these things....

Posted by: roar on December 1, 2004 6:24 PM

re:roar

Sorry love, that argument doesn't fly. Apple clearly states "Internet access requires a compatible Internet service provider" as a footnote to items that require internet access as do all companies. The phrasing changes depending on the product.

Posted by: Rosyna on December 1, 2004 7:56 PM

The true cost of Mac OS X?

$129.00 MAX (if you wait a bit you can get it for less)

Yes, Apple has other software, hardware, subscriptions, warranties, T Shirts and lots of other things you could spend your money on, and NONE of them is NECESSARY for using OS X.

rosyna is essentially upset because Apple offers it's customers more than just a base OS. By her reasoning, Windows XP also costs A LOT more than it's base cost because it is UTTERLY USELESS without Microsoft Office.

Posted by: FF on December 1, 2004 8:15 PM

Average content, but lame arguments and poor style, and he didn't pull out of his tuck quickly enough. The russian judge gives him a "3".

Posted by: dr.dr on December 1, 2004 9:16 PM

Something that no one here mentions is that Apple advertises iLife as features that are part of buying a new system, not part of OS X.

I realize that you were not intending to compare Apple to Microsoft, but you seem to have inadvertently done so. That comparison can not be made on software alone because Apple sells the complete package. That's what makes owning a Mac, owning a Mac.

Also, the fact of the matter is that Apple is a company. One doesn't have to like their business practices. I for one take greater exception to all of the damn hipsters in the Apple Store in SoHo. Still, complaints are good and all, but this one doesn't seem like a well based one. Get your facts straight and actually look at what they're advertising. They don't have iLife info mentioned prominently on the OS X Panther or Tiger preview pages for good reason, it isn't part of the OS. iLife will most likely ALWAYS be part a new system purchase (eMac, iBook, iMac, PowerBook, ...)

Damn, aside from the iPod, Apple has been, currently is and most likely will continue to be a SYSTEMS company. That means hardware AND OS. Therefore, their advertising reflects that image accordingly.

I purchased QuickTime Pro several years ago and I do think it's about time they cut that out. Still though, anyone who purchases one of their Creative Suite programs gets QTPro for free. The MPEG-2 component is also a bit bogus but I anticipate some changes to the QuickTime pricing and licensing structure come Tiger and the next revision of QT. It's inevitable.

Posted by: jellygreen on December 1, 2004 11:17 PM

"The noble and fair thing for Apple to do is to release iPhoto 4.0 and iMovie 4.0 as free downloads."

The noble and fair thing for Unsanity to do is to release all their applications and utilities as free downloads. After all, software wants to be free and crass capitalism has no place in the world of Mac OS X. Right?

Didn't think so.

What does Apple owe you? Nada. Zip. Nothing. It's a free market; feel free to take your business elsewhere. Linux. Windows. Whatever. Don't like what you get with OS X? Deal. Apple's only duty is to its shareholders; they're a business, not a charity.

Feel like you've been "overcharged" for Mac OS X features? That Apple should cripple its apps (w/o .Mac support, ...), only to serve the lowest common denominator?

What a ridiculous argument and rant.

Posted by: JoeDoe on December 2, 2004 12:50 AM

The fundamental premise of this is wrong. Apple have bundled iLife 04 with every computer that was not already packaged up in their warehouses since iLife 04 was introduced. If you buy a new machine, it comes with ilife 04 and has done since iLife 04 came out. I double checked the date of the artical because it seemed that the writer was complaining about the situation in the weeks after the release of iLife 04. Now though, it is plain wrong. Get your facts right.

Posted by: Bevil Templeton-Smith on December 2, 2004 2:49 AM

I would say: those without sin throw the first rock..

meaning.. I used to use a nice haxie called Silk. In the 1.x it was free (still is, but I advice strongly against even trying to install it on panther) and now those guys, for the 2.x version, which does run fine on panther, they suddenly want to get paid for their work.. It's outrageous! :-)

Bottom line.. everything has it's price if you don't want to pay for it nobody is twisting your arm to do so. You have choices and even though I don't believe you seriously feel that you would be better of using XP.. it is a choice that you could make.. same goes for using a slow version of iPhoto.. you don't have to buy iLife if you don't want too.. And like others have said if you check the carefully you'll see that marketing for iLife is pretty separate from OSX.

Posted by: BofD on December 2, 2004 4:00 AM

Just wanted to say - I've been using iPhoto since version 1. I used the version that you are calling a "demo" for many months before upgrading to the iLife suite (I wanted to try Garageband). I liked that version of iPhoto. Worked great for me, wasn't too slow, and the previews weren't as blurry as they currently are in iPhoto 3. iPhoto 2 was a GREAT free product. The fact that iPhoto 3 is faster doesn't take away from how good iPhoto 2 was, and still is.

Can't comment on iMovie. I have FCP.

As far as QT Pro - I agree it's a rip-off. Way overpriced. I use BitPlayer (free) to do almost everything that QT Pro did. Works great!

Posted by: Jim <>< on December 2, 2004 6:35 AM

This really amount to a bit of whining. OS X can be had for less than $129, and any decent consumer knows this. Jeez. How many people walk into the Apple store and pay sales tax and full price for a new Mac? Someone who does not shop around. I paid $85 for Jag (full version, non student, online). I paid $100 for Panther, same deal.

I have also bought a few Unsanity products and although for a few hours they are pretty cool, ultimately they are worthless and distracting.

This sounds a lot like bitching and moaning over capitalism. The price of iLife 04 was a steal at $50.

So, for $235 over the last two years, I have had the best OS and the best consumer digital apps. Period.

Posted by: Kurt on December 2, 2004 7:35 AM

What does Windoze cost for those of us w/ more than one computer? I would say that most of us fall in that category - more than one computer. How 'bout 5 computers? Mac OS X is still only $199 (family pack)...now compare that to Windoze.

Posted by: NSN on December 2, 2004 7:53 AM

I believe QuickTime Pro might be the only valid argument, but that really doesn't matter. It's been said before, and the argument is rather worn and tired now.

The most important issue here, as mentioned very recently, the matter of volume discounts with Mac OS X. Buying 5 Licenses for your household costs 199$ from Apple, amounting to little more than 40$ per license. On this Windows side of things, Newegg.com, truely the only online retailer for PC folks, offers a Professional 3-Pack for 439$, amounting to a touch under 150$ per license. And really, I only have two Macs, but I still saved quite handsomely by going with the Family Pack.

I suppose one can't argue taste, but... come now, you're comparing Mac OS X to Windows XP Pro? A gorgeous, gleaming, marble statue resembling modern opertaing systems to an ugly, little wooden figurine of times gladly forgotten? As far as aesthetics and productivity go, that's ridiculous. I've never been more comfortable working with Mac OS X than another operating system in my life and productivity is high. Everything seems to flow so smoothly with OS X, as if the entire operating system is a fluid stream of genius, while working with Windows XP, it always feels like something is in the way. As if the operating system, which should be unobtrusive as possible, is obstructing my entire work flow. Not to mention the tone of all the Microsoft Applications on Windows is just so... condescending.

Thanks for the article anyway. It's kind of fun playing devil's advocate for a little while. Oh, and because of your article, I was directed here from MacNN, and now I'm buying some of your software. Go you.

A footnote: If Apple would get their act together in the gaming department on Mac OS X, it would really help me out a lot. It seems as though the only thing Windows has going for it is the fact that not only do they have a vastly greater supply of games from the PC Gaming industry, but the multiplatform games that actually make it to the Mac simply run better and more stable in the Windows environment. As I was saying, it would help me out, because I have to defend that fact that I use a Mac on an almost daily basis. Typically speaking, I'm forced to play the cliché Mac user, "If you could actually afford a Mac, you'd appreciate them, too."

Posted by: Rageous on December 2, 2004 9:28 AM

(posted this over at MacNN)

Ok... so $300, but what do you get and what would it cost you to replace it?

If I gave a "shareware" price to all of the applications you get with all of these things, let me see what the total is.

.Mac
- $15 Backup
- $15 Virex
- $25 coupons (there are over $100 worth)
- $20 iMap Webmail
- $40 1yr Web services, iDisk 250MB

$115 Subtotal

iLife
- $25 - iPhoto
- $20 - iMovie
- $20 - GarageBand
- $30 - iDVD
- $0 - iTunes

$95 Subtotal

OSX
- $20 - Mail.app
- $10 - iSync
- $10 - iCal
- $10 - Addressbook
- $10 - iChat
- $10 - XCode
- $10 - DVD Player
- $5 - Preview
- $5 - Sherlock 3
- $0 - Safari

$90 Subtotal

$40 - Quicktime Pro

$340 total

So, if you bought all of those apps, at pretty low shareware prices, you would be over $300 and you still have the full OS to talk about.

Could any one developer give you all of that for UNDER $300?

How much is Photoshop?
How much is Office?

Also, you are not taking into account the family licensing of OSX. If you buy the $199 OSX you can put it on 5 computers costing you just $40 a computer. Try that with Microsoft, it would be 5 x $150 (or whatever).

BZ

Posted by: BZ on December 2, 2004 11:43 AM

Apple never changes. They lie to their customers with dull marketing and keynotes.
Is the high prices for slow hardware. Applications that are slow...
In fact, after years of evolution, Mac OS X lacks interface customization and you can see how many apple-applications gets fancy by tiff-based interfaces.

Posted by: orenom on December 2, 2004 12:35 PM

"I mean in order to get a system as show in the below screenshot, you must purchase Xounds, ShapeShifter, and FontCard."

Why would one have to purchase Xounds to make their system look like that screenshot? Am I missing something? Does that screenshot have sound? Do I need to buy QuickTime Pro to hear it?

Remember folks, Apple is a corporation!

Posted by: Mike on December 2, 2004 4:31 PM

I agree to some extent that Quicktime Pro is a pretty much required upgrade. However, assuming that one needs to buy iMovie and/or iPhoto is B.S. unless they have both a Mini-DV cam and/or a digital camera. If they have both of those - $49 ain't squat for iLife.

The iDisk and .Mac features are worthless as far as I'm concerned. And, if you're gonna compare it to Windows (I know you aren't, it's okay) then have you considered their MSN service? Or, have you considered that after purchasing the full version of Office 2004 they're now asking you to pay to check your FREE Hotmail account through Entourage? Crazy stuff

I'm not by any means an Apple advocate to the extent that they can do no wrong. Far from it. I've got much to say about the almost $500 I've spent JUST on OS X. True, that is including the Public Beta I paid for and received NO discount on OS X final.

Anywho..
What's this about coupons? I've purchased 4 of your products (MightyMouse, FruitMenu, WindowShade and ShapeShifter) and I know of no coupons. That FontCard program's starting to look pretty good and I'm curious about these coupons you speak of :)

Posted by: Mitcz Marzoni on December 2, 2004 8:37 PM

Might as well mention that Apple doesn't read these articles, so you might want to submit your suggestions to a channel they *do* examine:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/

Cynics out there can say what they will, but *something might happen* if you post there, whereas *nothing will happen* if you post here.

Posted by: Josh Zerin on December 3, 2004 1:11 AM

I completely agree that we need to be able to specify our own WebDAV servers if we want to. I'm a big supporter of apple for catering heavily to new users and non-technical types, but they should still include the functionality for more advanced users.

Posted by: Stevie on December 3, 2004 9:49 AM

You don't have to pay for iChat AV to videochat with your iSight. iVisit is iFree. (I gotta say, all this iEverything does get to you...)

from Clytie

Posted by: Clytie on December 4, 2004 1:45 AM

too much speculation and bias.

os X 10.3 is os X 10.3 , no need to buy iLife

do you need to buy windows XP plus! ?

and no need to speculate about Tiger. it's not fact.

Posted by: michel on December 18, 2004 7:06 AM

The worst part about it, though, is that .Mac service is a recurring item, year after year after year.

And michel--Photo Story, WMM, etc. are free. You don't need Plus! for that. However, for OS X to compete with XP on multimedia, it needs iLife.

Posted by: Barnett on December 29, 2004 7:54 AM

Good job at making OS X look more expensive than it is, but you forgot some things:

To get it to run at the speed shown in the demos you will need a dual processor. It is advertised as being optimized for 64 bit. You need dual G5. Add $1999.

The demos showed the airport menulet. You need an airport card and base. Add $79+$199=$278.

OSX has bluetooth support. To take advantage of that you need a bluetooth module. Add $50.

In order to quickly access contextual menus you need a 2 button mouse. Three more buttons are needed because OSX allows you to map Expose actions to mouse buttons. Thats 5 mouse buttons. Logitech MX900. Add $99.95.

You included the cost of iDVD, so I assume you want a superdrive. Upgrade from Combo. Add $100.

You included the cost of iMovie, which requires a mini dv camera. Add $349.

Apple advertised that iTunes was integrated with the iPod. To use that feature you will need one of them. Add $299.

"Import basic Microsoft Word .DOC documents into TextEdit." MS Office 2k4. Add $399.95.

The OS X page shows a screenshot of a video chat through iSight. Feature advertised=you need to get one! Add $149.

"Carry your contacts and calendars on your PDA or mobile phone." PDA and mobile phone. Add $149+$100=$249.

"Connect dozens of displays with no additional software." You need 2 dozen displays. 12x$1299=$15,588. OUCH! Running OS X with all advertised features is getting expensive!!!

"Connect hundreds of printers with no additional software." Well then, let's use 200! 200 network ready printers: 200x$349=$69,800.

There's even more stuff they advertise, but I'm stopping here. Let't total that!
I get $89,360.9

OS X costs way too much if you want to use all the advertised features. Get Windows instead. It doesn't have features...

So in short, you need to be one rich bastard to use every single feature they advertise. Oh and wait, Garage Band supports the Jam Packs. Gotta get them too! So I guess that all the author points out is that he is an idiot, and assumes everyone will want to use EVERY SINGLE FEATURE OF THE OS. Guess what! THEY DONT!!!!

Author = Dumbass!

Some stuff I skipped:
Connect dozens of DV camcorders with no additional software.

Connect dozens of input devices, including Bluetooth keyboards and mice, game controllers and graphics tablets, with no additional software.

Connect many scanners without additional software.

Browse any kind of network server, including Windows servers, directly in the Finder. (I guess you need to get a windows server to browse if you want to use that feature)

Connect to the office network with built-in VPN client and support for third-party verification schemes such as RSA SecurID. (Buy yourself an office)

Control which applications your kids can use. (How much do kids cost? Can I get them from the Apple Store?)

Print labels using different Avery label templates. (Didn't check how much Avery label templates cost, I spent enough time doing this already)

Posted by: Will on December 30, 2004 12:38 PM

In the past two years, I purchased several Unsanity products and have never, to my knowledge, sought after or shared the registration information for these products.

In the past two years, I considered twice, maybe three times, replacing the serial number for QuickTime Pro that I found on Google with a valid, purchased serial number.

It's not that Apple is a "big company", durable to the loss in profit from me as a customer -- it's that Unsanity products are worth paying for, while QuickTime Pro isn't.

If QuickTime Pro included functional DivX/3ivX/AVI/MPEG-2/Ogg/FLAC support, it'd be worth it; "full screen" and "save to disk", though? No thanks; I'll continue using the illegal serial number until they find a set of features that I feel are actually worth paying for.

If I were rich, I wouldn't even dream of pirating; I'm in the "very poor" category of Macintosh owners at this time. I can afford a $10 utility that makes my work experience more efficient; I can't afford a $40 "full screen mode" player that makes my DVDs look better.

Posted by: Pseudo Anonymous on January 2, 2005 4:22 PM

Is this a humor column?

Sure seems like it...

Posted by: Sam on January 16, 2005 8:35 AM

I think that the cost that you claim to be for OS X is pale in comparison to the produtivity gained by using OS X over having to fight with an operating system like Windows XP (home or pro.)

When I bought my mac, I bought it to edit videos from my camcorder so I could send my family video emails. Since I was serving in the military overseas and an hour long phone call home cost about $20. I worked as a PC repair technician at the time and everyone I worked with asked me why a Mac over a PC... the answer was simple it did everything that I needed it to do and then some right out of the box.

I could have paid less up front for a PC but using the old addage time is money. I have saved enough time in productivity that my iBook has more than paid for its self and all the OS upgrades and software upgrades that I have put into it.

bottom line OS X wins without competiton in a TCO battle with Windows XP (home or pro), and windows XP is IMHO the best operating system Microsoft has released since DOS 6.22, too bad it pales in comparison to Panther and next summer when all mac fans can upgrade to Tiger we will see old XP slip that much further behind. How long can Microsoft drag out the release of longhorn, just long enough to crudely copy the features of Tiger that make it a compelling upgrade.

There is something to be said about you get what you pay for, and I for one am glad that I paid for my Mac. Regardless of what it has and will continue to cost me.

Posted by: Joe on January 23, 2005 12:35 PM

Your all a bunch of fanboys . If you set OS X and WinXP Pro together only base . No other software . You`ll see a lot of differences :

1.WMP kicks the shit out of QT
2.No ads
3.Buying all the other software for Windows.What a bunch of bullshit , Ever heard of warez!
4.Mac Os upgrade , equivilant to a service pack costs money....WTF!

I`ll tell you something , my comp is over 6yrs old and it runs WinXP pro sp2 perfectly . The total cost of software on it $0 (thank god for reverse engineering)

Equivilant cost on a mac over $10,000

I will admit MS is greedy but not as much as that!

There is no point having so many upgrades for a mac when 99.9% of the code is the same as the previous OS

The reason why MS isnt releasing longhorn until 2006 . It makes perfect sense Win XP is the best os every released by MS . and not everyone is an upgrade freak , 4-5 yrs is a sensible upgrade time . Your also forgetting the fact that they are developing a whole new FS system (WinFS).Not easy along with a 3D gui

Posted by: Bob on January 24, 2005 12:57 AM

Srry to double post but in the end this game is stupid . In the end it comes down to what you want and how stupid you are !

Posted by: Bob on January 24, 2005 12:59 AM

Bob are you actually bragging that you steal software by cheating developers out of the money that they use to feed their children. I'll admit that not all of the money goes there, but I just have to say I've never seen such a cheap bastard.

$10,000.00 worth? Isn't that well into felony range? And your calling MS greedy? If that is the justification for using Windows then I don't want it.

Just cause it's data on a hard drive and is easy to copy doesn't make it free.

Posted by: Ash on January 26, 2005 9:40 PM

My point Ash , is that on a mac , apple controls a communist regime

All hardware/software is certified by them and can only be purchased from selected apple stores

Am i calling MS greedy ?......you bet your balls I am . Win XP comes out......a whooping $600

From your negative tone I would say you use a mac more than 85% of the time . I didnt use a copied version of WinXP , I just bought a stamped copy in Taiwan for $3 . I`m still unaware how they do it so cheap....do you know

How often do you go to church?
Are you scarred of going to hell for commiting some barely illegal activities?

I bet you live in the F^&*%$@ church!
Do you even have 1 illegal mp3 file ?

"Just cause its on a hard drive and copyable doesnt make it free" . You sound like George Dubya Bush giving a terrorist speech!

Calling me a cheap bastard . $10,000 is an estimate . I wouldnt even = that on a mac because 99% of that software doesnt exsist on mac. Just look at 3ds max or sound forge ? how much do they cost each ?

Stealing from the developers ? Wheres the nerve to charge upwards of $1000 for software full of bugs

Posted by: Bob on January 27, 2005 1:37 AM

Ah, Microsoft Bob -- now in Troll flavor!

Posted by: Erick on January 29, 2005 5:26 AM

indeed

Posted by: on January 31, 2005 9:41 AM

WTF!....please state which context that is in

"Ah, Microsoft Bob -- now in Troll
flavour".....

OH PLEASE GOD EXPLAIN!

Posted by: bob on February 2, 2005 11:59 PM

Some interesting comments made, but I find Bob's the most amusing. Just because Bob is able to get hold of illegal copied software for every possible task, doesn't make Apple expensive.

That would be like saying a car showroom is way too expensive because you can get the same car for free if you break into one and steal it...

Bob also claims 99% of software doesn't exist on a Mac, which is pure nonsense. Take a look at Adobe, Macromedia and even Microsoft who all make Mac versions of extremely popular Windows products, such as Office, Photoshop, Dreamweaver and many more, used throughout offices all over the country.

Not to mention the multitude of free software you can find to do just about anything! I have a fully featured syntax highlighting script editor which does exactly what TextPad does on Windows, and its free.

Despite all this though I have found I actually need to buy less add on utilities because more of it is provided in the OS itself...

If Apple is a communist regime for providing a fully integrated solution, then I know many other businesses which would also be guilty. To take the car showroom analogy once again, a car showroom is a dictatorship because not only do they sell the body of the car, they sell it with everything else you need to run the car - wheels, tyres, glass in the windows, an engine, exhaust system, brakes, hub caps and so on!

All these parts can be purchased from seperate retailers if so desired, and many people do build their own cars from scratch as a hobby, but as an amateur in car mechanics I'd rather pay the money and have a complete package ready to use straight away - which is exactly what you get when you buy a Mac.

I suggest you actually try the Mac OS as your main system for a week (with an open mind). You will not want to go back to Windows having seen how it can be with a Mac. That's what I did, and I'll never go back...

Posted by: Ryan on February 3, 2005 4:29 PM

I was thinking.....Ever meet a MAC user who has ever tried WINDOWS for the first time and said- "Holy S$%!, what have I been doing- Windows is SOOOO much better, I'll never use a MAC again!"

Okay that's a little unfair b/c most of us HAD to use windows first. Kudos to Gates for being a computer geek AND a good business man- but b/c you won the battle does not mean you are defacto ruler of the world. The war wages on, and it is waged with market share and MONEY. I can dig it.

I HAVE to use windows at work- the military doesn't play the MAC vs. Windows game, but it is a RELIEF to get home and sit down at my PowerBook.

You pay or steal what works for you- for the things that make your life easier. It's just frustrating to see the throngs of people lining up to be handed a piece of crap and ignoring a product(company) that MAKES MONEY YES but also provides a great product.

Bottom line: I have NEVER met a windows user that used MAC OS X for an hour or two and didn't seriously think about switching. For those of you that may be out there- COME TO THE LIGHT, turn your back on the DARKNESS, its okay, we'll understand, we were there once too- its okay to admit that the PC you bought is crap and windows (if made of paper) would be better for wiping your A$$ with.

Admit it

MACS rule.

You know it
_______________________________________
As for Rosyna- right on about the QTP bit, but I agree with most of the others, the price calcs are a little off. I am not sure if anyone mentioned it but: MAC OS X has no anti-virus software packaged with it (at least mine did not)- .MAC comes with Virex or something I think. I don't know about the rest of you guys but in the words of some MAC magazine: "I would sooner weld naked than run windows without anti-virus software, spyware, and pop-up blockers running." Now I know you are not comparing the two (??), but you should SUBTRACT the cost of these types of programs (required for windows IMHO) from the cost of MAC OS X- it really doesn't need them.

As for Bob- people work and make MONEY for their effort. The funny thing is- THEY get to decide how much to charge, we get to decide what to BUY. You suggest that software developers charge too much for what they do- maybe so. I am standing by for a version of iTunes by "BOB Inc." that works as well or better than the original, I'll pay 5$ for it. When will it ship?

Please remember ladies and gents, some things are VASTLY UNDERPRICED in this life- My friends are dying in a sandbox right now- I have served with them and lived with them. They get paid SQUAT. IT ALL WORKS OUT ON THE BOTTOM LINE. I am sorry you feel it necessary to horde your share of the pie Bob. I really am.

AND, I really do feel bad about judging *you*, but I felt the spotlight had to be redirected. I hope you can forgive all this because I do not write it with malice. I just want to give you a taste of your own medicine. SO, before you get all high and mighty again trying to judge me from afar:

I do not attend church. I have seen to much.
I did not vote for my boss.
I have used a MAC for <1 year.
I use the MAC for 60% of all work I perform due to my job.

Have I stolen stuff, either physically or electronically- sure. I am no more perfect than the next person- but I am not proud of it. Onlike you however, I don't think I ever suggested I should be given an item for free or for some vastly reduced price, haggle with a vendor-sure, shop around-fine, beg-maybe but you are a small weakminded individual with little or no character.

What do you do for a living? Perhaps your employer should not pay you for any week's work you do for him if he is able to download, hack, or copy your work into exsistence from some teenaged indian computer genius (if you are in the tech industry for instance).

You should probably watch your mouth for a change and realize that the virtual world still has real people in and act accordingly b/c in my REAL world you would have had your butt kicked for speaking that way to someone........

No further comments.

Posted by: FairWinds on February 4, 2005 2:33 PM

Well said!!! Great minds think alike it would appear. :) :) :)

Posted by: Ryan on February 4, 2005 3:06 PM

*Directed to FairWinds*

Send $50.96 via paypal to my account at no1@scamartist.net and you will recieve the following products :

BobZilla..... (the only way to surf the net!)
BonkTunes.... (for all your media needs)
MelonSoft Appartment... (word processor..etc)
and a FREE TRIAL of a Fabric Softener

I really dont understand you getting all worked up over me....YOUR ONLY FRIENDS DYING IN A SANDBOX FOR CHRIST SAKES ! Just for laughs how hold are they ? (because if they`re over the age of 6 months)

My own "medicine"....what is that ,a lecture from your friends on the latest animal S*%t floating around in the sandbox

1.You didnt vote for boss....who the hell does !

2.quote - " I use the mac 60% of the time due to my work".....Your calling me sad , you actually sat down and worked out the percentage of how much work you do on it, JEEZ

I have enough character to argue with you , and seeing your doing the same I must be equal in Characteristics as you !

Work ? Im not even eligible (age wise) for a job yet...but it would be cool if The Department of Education did pay me to go and fall asleep in class

in your real world ?
From the looks of your grammar and intent of not having "malice" in any statement . It really sounds like your 6ft 5in tall with biceps to match rather than some 45yr old pencil necked computer geek !

Im really scared!....Im going to get my momma

So when are you and your big toddler buddies gonna kick me back to the state Alabama !

Posted by: Bob on February 4, 2005 9:47 PM

Once again for those of you out who are actually on the fence:

Find someone with a MAC, anywhere and use it. You'll either like it or love it. The only group I can think of that should not buy a MAC are people who enjoy building their own computers from the ground up (not just customizing)- if its your hobby and passion: you cannot go into a store and purchase component parts for MAC.

I happen to like the job they do putting it together and I am willing to PAY FOR IT.

On that other note>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This is good-

Hey junior:

Sandbox = Iraq, Afganistan, etc. etc
My 'boss' = the President (through a very LONG chain of Command)

My job - I am a Officer in the US Navy, trained to drive submarines and operate a nuclear power plant: currently stationed ashore to direct the movement of said submarines

My friends= all the guys I went through training and school with that are Marines, SEALs, pilots, and general purpose Sailors out there.

I don't spell check or grammer check posts on websites nor do I care much about doing said activities outside of work

This was actually fun. If you think I got worked up over you buddy.....it is hard for me to control my laughter.

I DIDN'T post for YOU: I posted for ASH.

I am going to go back to reality now: the one where people are dying, the one people work to support kids who have nothing really better to do than steal stuff off the internet, the one where I get paid and then BUY stuff.....

You won't hear from me again, unless of course you want to tell me where I can said the military recruiter?

Peace Bob.

Posted by: FairWinds on February 4, 2005 11:05 PM

Bobs still at school? figures...

Posted by: on February 6, 2005 1:20 PM

We`re in a "war" .Stop deserting your "friends" ,get off this forum and get back to WORK before you crash your sub into the coast line and make yet another "tragic" news headline !

"Kids that steal stuff off the net" Tchwa what else you expect me to do . I AINT GOT NO MONEY !
------------------

"Bob still at school?figures.." what the f*&^ does that mean . Have you not the intellect to post your name .Have you not got the intellect to write more than 1 sentence .

Yes I am still at school.Where are you ! no let me guess vegating in front of the TV all day stating the phrases "Oooh ,pretty colors" & "Big Bird Funny" . Must be close enough to you there both single sentences

Posted by: Bob on February 6, 2005 9:27 PM

It figures because resorting to insults and vulgar slang is exactly what you would expect from a child. Perhaps one day you will see what a fool you sound like now. My intellect is irrelevant, I merely chose to write a single sentance which was concise and to the point. I shall not be wasting any more of my time observing you dig a deeper hole for yourself. Good day and thanks for the amusement.

Posted by: on February 7, 2005 10:49 AM

FairWinds-

Thanks for doing what you do and even bigger thanks to your buddies over there.

How awesome would it be if we could send them all MAC's for homecoming gifts!

For the kiddies:

I weep for the future of America. Hold on everyone because help is NOT on the way.

Posted by: Sean on February 7, 2005 11:57 AM

Anonymous---
If your statement was direct to the point why did I question it ? (like saying Dubya Bush is crazy?figures..) . And still you do not state your name !

only children are vulgar and resort to insults?
Its called arguing,get used to it,you live in a democratic society! (you havent learnt much from your "childhood")

Sean---
Why do you weep for the adults of the furure?
the world is currently so pissed off at each other individual countries and with the help of "vigilanties" (terrorists) . My guess is that WW3 isnt far off .And this time there are no years off death .No armouries being emptied each morning.It will be over in 1 day !

And in that 1 day more than half of Earths population will be wiped out . It is human nature to argue and fight(ala ANONYMOUS) and it is that unfortunate , yet sometime funny virtue that will lead to the extinction of humans !

I did not start this reaction of political hatred,nor did any of my peers !

It is the bastards from "your" era that rebelled first!the hatred of your era has intensified over the odd 30-40yrs! We are just the repercussion of that and we are influenced by "your" era on the Media (TV,Radio)

So dont blame me!...Blame yourself !

Posted by: Bob on February 8, 2005 1:11 AM

I am sorry I am such an idoit. I won't post here again b/c its clear I have nothing to offer the world

Posted by: FairWinds on February 8, 2005 1:39 AM

F*ck You . Stealing my name . Putting words in my mouth.Yes you are an IDIOT . Look even I can spell it correctly .

If you were gonna post that why didnt you wait at least 10-12hrs to post it.The only time I double posted in this forum i apologised like i always do.

If you reply to this than state your "REAL" name!
IDIOT!

Posted by: Bob on February 8, 2005 8:49 PM

Fairwinds...haha I should of guess't you`d only have the dimwitted intelligience to "steal my name" .

So much for not posting on this forum again!

Yes , (for once)I do agree with your statement . its good you got that off your chest . Try to go out in honour than commit suicide .You sound very depressed , but remember your in the "sandbox" for a reason....to serve your lying "boss" .

If Dubya had any balls he would have intiated defcon 4 & launched nuclear attacks against the whole middle east September 12 , they already had proof ! No-one in the democratic or communist world for that matter would give a rats ass about it . All that comes out of the middle east is violence and they are taught from day 1 to have the intent to harm others (seen the riots lately) !

Has anyone noticed that this forum isnt about macs anymore ?......Yet more of a (more organized) fight room

Fairwinds...If you are actually in the US Navy. Can you send me a pic of yourself in your "super tight" sailor pants and little cute hat .Im sure the other guys go crazy for you.I can sense your muscularity emitting from the text you type with your strong fingers.Do you mind if I post you up at www.gays4sale.net . Call me sometime ?
-----just play'in

Posted by: Bob on February 10, 2005 3:42 AM

I've used PCs my entire life up until my senior year of high school, which happened to end in 2004, where I was given the oppertunity to take a course in communication tech. I got to participate in desktop publishing tasks using professional applications, I got to help produce/edit a movie, and I also got to fool around with multitrack recording software.

Adorning the wall-mounted tables were brand new dual processor Power Mac G5s. Up until that point, I've never sat down with a Mac and played around. After the first 10 minutes of navigating in Aqua, I was amazed. I was hooked.

I'm now in college studying music production and sound engineering, and I'm glad to say, all we use are Macs.

I won't ever go back to Windows again.

...

And Bob, shouldn't you be diving back into your crypt and gnawing at bones?

Posted by: Irio on February 14, 2005 6:20 PM

I was a diehard Windows user for YEARS. With my new job, I ended up getting a G4 laptop and I LOVE IT. I'll tell you what the total cost of ownership for a Windows box is - time. Time to mess with, fix, and reinstall. It got to where I was reinstalling Windows every 6 months. Hell, it was faster to reinstall than to troubleshoot after a while. There is ALWAYS something wrong with Windows. For me, Windows took up way too much of my time. With my Mac, I actually can use the machine instead of constantly trying to fix it!

Posted by: Wayne on February 17, 2005 8:40 PM

I totally agree with Bob .What we should do is round up all our software and give him all the serials in a nice little neat text package .

Irio , why must you insult warez freaks like us.
If it wasnt for the scene they wouldnt of had to develop multiple tight-ass secrutiy features--->eg. Securom 4....Ohhhh I hate that! (eye twitching frequently)

We dont gnaw bones in dark erey crypts . We are not cryptfiends (well not yet).What are ppls probs with what we do...We violate copy-right infringement...boo-hoo . What about the murders and rapeists out there ?

Yes I do agree 6 months and Windows is ready for another format . Use Linux

Posted by: Stewie on February 19, 2005 10:49 PM

It's stupid to argue about the pricing of things anyone who isn't an idiot can simply find an equivalent free program to replace, much less dicuss purchasing software in general.

Posted by: kris on February 28, 2005 12:57 PM

Re: bob

You can always tell a PC user because they CAN'T SPELL!

Bob, you wrote: "Your all a bunch of fanboys"

You meant to use the contraction "you're" not "your" ... "your" is the possessive form of the word "you." "you're" is the contraction of the words "you" and "are."

The two major things about PC users who like to come to Mac web sites and whine... they are poorly educated, as evidenced by your lack of command of the English language. And that poor education means you have a crappy job and don't make any money, so you complain about how much things cost, like Macs and software, and have to resort to modding some shit box PC and stealing all your "warez." Grow up already.

"If you set OS X and WinXP Pro together only base . No other software . You`ll see a lot of differences :"

Second grammatical mistake, you are using a grave (`) as an apostrophe. Wrong.

Okay the differences I see is OS X, in its *full version* is $129. For XP you have the "home" version, which doesn't include everything OS X does, and the "pro" version, which is still crap. The home *upgrade* version cost $208.99 ($275.97 for the full package) and the pro version is $309.49!!! Even the "upgrade" is more than OS X, at $208.99. Okay so I see that XP is about twice as expensive... so you are going to tell me it's better too? Don't make me laugh! OS X is based on BSD UNIX and NeXTSTEP. We can run X11 applications, and download FREE software, just like on Linux (which is also better than Windows).

"1.WMP kicks the shit out of QT"

How so?

"2.No ads"

What ads are you referring too? For Quicktime Pro? I don't have any ads. You figure out why.

"3.Buying all the other software for Windows.What a bunch of bullshit , Ever heard of warez!"

And you say bull shit do you? Did you ever hear of puncuation? Typical PC moron. See what I wrote about the cost of Windows and how much more software there is for OS X for FREE.

"4.Mac Os upgrade , equivilant to a service pack costs money....WTF!"

No, actually only the major upgrades cost money. The reason this seems foreign to you is because Microshaft only releases upgrades, what, every four years or so? And then you NEED the Service packs because Windows is a buggy insecure mess!

(and the word is "equivalent." You would think that the wonder that is XP would at least have a built in spell checker... just like OS X does!) ;)

Apple releases a major OS update every year or so, unlike MS. The minor updates (i.e., 10.3.1, 10.3.2, 10.3.4, etc.) are FREE.

You will be sitting there waiting for Longhorn, while we will have OS X 10.4 (Tiger). And you were sitting waiting for Longhorn when Jaguar and Panther were released too. So let's see, we had about 4 more OS version than you did... and XP is STILL NT 5 with a poorly designed face lift!

"I`ll tell you something , my comp is over 6yrs old and it runs WinXP pro sp2 perfectly . The total cost of software on it $0 (thank god for reverse engineering)"

And my (old) G4 is 466 MHz and runs OS X better I'm sure! And I didn't have to steal my software... and I even got it at a discount because my wife is a teacher. ;)

"Equivilant cost on a mac over $10,000"

There's that word again! Spell it with me, E-q-u-i-v-a-l-e-n-t!
And I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. I have a TON of software and didn't spend anything near that.

"I will admit MS is greedy but not as much as that!"

No, they are greedy and write crappy software. And they want $309.49 for that crappy imitation Mac OS!

"There is no point having so many upgrades for a mac when 99.9% of the code is the same as the previous OS"

And you base that nonsensical claim on what information?

Windows is still at version 5! That's sad, isn't it? As far as "same code" they ran a shell over DOS until NT came out (which they stole from IBM) and now you are still running NT with a Fisher Price GUI on top. You NEED an upgrade to fix all the bugs and security holes. We get a TON of new features... features you don't have... not until MS rips off Apple, again!

"The reason why MS isnt releasing longhorn until 2006 . It makes perfect sense Win XP is the best os every released by MS . and not everyone is an upgrade freak , 4-5 yrs is a sensible upgrade time . Your also forgetting the fact that they are developing a whole new FS system (WinFS).Not easy along with a 3D gui"

XP is crap. W2K runs much faster. And Longhorn is vapor ware! Don't hold your breath! Who's the "fanboy" now? You are bob. You are gullible enough to kiss up to Billy and company and believe every lie they tell you. If and when Longhorn does come out, it will be the same as W2K with another STUPID LOOKING GUI on top... 3D my ass! They can't get the current version of Windows to work well, you think they are going to do all that nonsense? This is not the first time Gates promised things and never delivered. Just like Itel and that Itanium or whatever the hell it was called. Vaporware!

Now go crawl back in your hole.

Posted by: DavidRavenMoon on March 2, 2005 8:18 PM

Bob wrote:

"99% of that software doesnt exsist on mac. Just look at 3ds max or sound forge ? how much do they cost each ?"

99% of which softwware? How about Maya and Lightwave 3D? You can buy them for the Mac. Sound Forge? Give me a break! How about Logic Audio? Oops.. can't get that for Windows. I use Cubase SX. You can also get ProTools, Metro, Peak, Deck, Tracktion, and of course GarageBand, which you can't get for Windows.

How about FinalCut Pro... you can't get that either.

We also have MS Office 2004, Adobe Creative Suite, Macromedia MX creative suite... I'm sorry but not having 3D SMax wont make me lose any sleep!

Just admit you don't know what you are talking about.

Posted by: DavidRavenMoon on March 2, 2005 9:20 PM

I think most of you fail to grasp the reality of the situation here. The point is not whether X is better that XP, or that one is more productive that the other, or even comparing the total cost of ownership. The bottom line is: which OS (including the upstarts) will be around in 10-15 years. We don’t know the answer - but based on their current positions in the market, if this were a horse race, who would YOU bet on?

It doesn’t matter which is “better”. I owned an Amiga computer 15 years ago and remember bragging that it could display 4096 colors compared to 256 on the PC, and that it had three (yes, three!) co-processors. Atari users were also bragging about similar features they felt made their computers superior. Maybe Amiga and Atari did have superior technology, maybe not. But where are they now?

Five years from now we could be adding Macintosh to that list of superior computers that didn’t make it (remember NEXT?) Who knows, Macintosh, Linux, or even Lindows could put Windows on that list as well – but I’d bet against that.

I’ve been a Windows person for a while now and wouldn’t switch to the Mac or back to Amiga for anything. And to the person who asked if there was a XP user that tried the OS X and didn’t want to switch, I’m sorry to say I can’t stand the Macintosh interface paradigm. I have relatives who have Macs and because I’m a computer professional, they ask me to fix problems they’re having (despite their advertising, Macs do have real problems that cannot be easily solved.) I’ll spend hours searching for the simplest tweek on a Mac that would only take me a few minutes on my XP computer. Does that make XP better? No! Does that make X worse? Again… no. Its just different. I upgraded my sister’s iBook to 10.3 and guess what? It got slower. Same thing would have happened on a PC.

How did I end up in this discussion? I don’t know. I was searching for a solution to an iChat problem and ended up here.

I commend Apple for their innovations. They have some real pretty stuff. I say we need one or two more big players in the market to keep forcing Microsoft to play the innovate-or-die game.

I'll end with one thought: You Mac people are sounding a lot like the Amiga and Atari people just before their ship sank...

Posted by: Walt on March 3, 2005 10:35 PM

Ohhh boy i havent checked here for over 2 months and ppl are still bitching about my comments.....Damn I`m like Michael Jackson without the molestation charges.

I do agree with Walt though...as soon as i started posting here the topic changed.But you`ve got to admit that is pretty cool to change a total apple conversation into a "moral debate" .

Where to begin (Cracking majority of joints)

DIRECTED AT "DAVIDRAVENMOON"

You are a "compuacist" (like racist but against diff. computer users).

"They are poorly educated, as evidenced by your lack of command of the english language"....um, uh that really doesnt put your insult forward now,does it ?

It comes across as your trying to say i have a "bladder problem" with my english . I always "leak" at the wrong time .What i swear too much ?

it should be "lack of knowledge of the english language"

Your calling me dumb ?
All because i wind you up..
If a "dumbass" like me winds an extremely intelligent bird**oops I mean human(see the meaning of raven)** like yourself and you start arguing with me.Doesnt that bring your mentality down to my "so-called level" as well.

You must really hate MS and all their creations.Is it because Billy looks better than you or Jobs just "tastes" better ?

What do you have against PCs "Shit-box PC" . I think you need to go to Tolerance School !

300 million computer users world wide .80 % is made up of Windows (or PC users) ."PC users CANT SPELL!" well that means 240 million people world wide cant spell .All except the MAC database of 5% (15 million) which can spell perfectly.........does that make sense .

Instead of trying to insult me and my values , why dont you pull your sticky hand out of your lap while sitting at the computer and spend some time with your wife. For christ sakes why did you get married if spend so much time on the computer**oops i mean MAC.To you a MAC which is a computer is superior to a computer or PC** that you have time to argue about this crap !

"WMP kicks the crap out of QT" --have you ever used WMP ? Because i dont think i need to explain

You dont get ads on QT Pro yeah ?
Well no Shi*...you're retarded enough to pay for a media player.Think about that last sentence.Im the labeled "dumbass" of this forum and I`m calling you a retard

Spell check...i could use it. But i use both hands to type .Not 1 finger at a time like you , who as the time per stroke to correct things there and then. Meanwhile I wouldnt be surprised where your other hand is .Wanker !

Service packs are a pain in the ass to download ever couple of years .But heres the thing , if all the spammers and crackers moved from the windows camp to the MAC camp tomorrow ,the guys at apple couldnt type fast enough to release all their secruity updates . Dont be a fanboy...no OS is holeproof . Especially when it hasnt been tested by the underground . So i cant see how you could say X is hacker-proof.

Yes you can update your OS as much as you like.But when longhorn comes out at the end of 2005 . You would already have spent $500 + on your precious 4 OS's .So how is Windows expensive when you use a sensible upgrade time?Do you like wasting money ?

466Mhz ?....yes I'm really confident

Yes MS did buy DOS of some random guy and then sold it to IBM . Funnily enough...you say MS steal all apple's inventions (for starters that business)..did you know apple stole source code out of DOS to make their first gui based OS !

My info you ask..Simple (jeez you need a lot of simple things explained to you !) apple release OS so rapidly that only minor changes are bound to take place.

Why is apple so great ?
Why is MS so bad ?
They're both corporations set out to make money any way they can.WTF is the difference ?

XP is the best OS MS has released. W2K takes 5 mintues to boot !

How can you complain about pretty colors and a gui.Isnt that what makes a MAC so attractive ?

Its time you learnt that no one cares about a fanboys opinion . If you are so loyal to a corporation(see above) then why dont you marry an apple ?
or did you ?

Why would a PC user go to a Mac Fanboy website ?

Relatively simple.....1 comment that threatens the MACs greatness and you all start bitching

MS Office 2004 ? does that even exsist ?
I though the latest version was 2003

How come most of those apps sound like they are made by apple ?

I still say that 99 % of useful software isnt on MAC .And my point saying that is , how often do you see the "appz" section for MAC's .I also know there are hardly any **playable & enjoyable **games for MAC

Posted by: Bob on March 16, 2005 5:04 AM

$29.99 for Quicktime Pro doesn't take the cake for ridicularity.

$49.99 does, though. That's how much it would cost me to buy the same product from Europe. They bar my credit card from transactions on the US site, and charge £25 to buy it from the UK one.

Physical goods cost more because they have to be shipped across the Atlantic. The distribution cost of their software is zero and I'm downloading it from the same place as the guy that paid $25. There is no justification and this is nothing grander than cynical gouging.

They forget we have a choice. I have no time at all for the argument that software piracy is "costing" them $bn - I'd willingly pay them $25 for their product IF THEY WOULD LET ME.

I bought the mini mac to dip my toe in the world of the mac. Don't like it - and I'm so glad I only wasted US$1000 (the European price, by the way) on the experiment, not US$5000.

Anyone want to buy a mini mac cheap(ish)?

Posted by: Rich on March 18, 2005 7:29 AM

Now I'm gonna try to give my oppinion without insulting n y 1.

Bob made a strong argument, but I have to say that mac os.x also has Warez... Windows and Macs are equal in terms of funcionality so I'm not gonna pick bones about it. Listen Bob, don't make comments about the navy cos u may need them some day- You talked so much that you diverted the subject completely, I am 16 and so still in school so I guess we are about the same age.
I am replying to your post specialy cos it made me laugh... I laughed to see that a kid could wind up guys who should really be laughing as well. I also like the fact that you take the extreme side of this argument and so offend many people.

Windows is the most used os- if n y 1 argues this, it is false! BUT IT IS DUE NOT TO THE FACT THAT APPLE IS A CRAPPY OS, COS THAT WOULD BE BULL SHIT!
IT IS DUE TO THE FACT THAT APPLE DOSEN'T SHOW PEOPLE HOW GOOD THEY ARE AND B/C OF THIS PEOPLE ONLY GO FOR WINDOWS- THIS IS THE HARD TRUTH ABOUT WHY MICROSOFT KICKS APPLE'S ASS- I MET A 19 Y/O OLD PERSON WHO DIDN'T EVEN THINK APPLE MADE COMPUTERS FOR 'AVERAGE USERS'!

I got a suggestion... find someone who has a mac and blag a go on it (you can slick talk so i guess they aint gonna say no) Try the NEW MAC OS.X and see if it is better, if not you can laugh about how deluded mac users are, if not you'll see that Mac OS.X is not just for wankers and geeks, but real people who just like other stuff.

Windows is good, Mac is good. You wanna get a computer which you can modify, and make it urs by using hacks and stuff like that, and ENJOY upkeeping it get a pc- u will love it and HAVE FUN. Wanna get a computer that works out of the box, is solidly built, and is pleaasing to the eye get a mac cos u r gonna love it!

well that's all I can say- hope u guys can consider what I said- and sorry abou the length off this article :-) (and i currently use pc, but am considering mac)

Posted by: Benjamin on March 19, 2005 12:26 PM

If Dubya had any balls he would have intiated defcon 4 & launched nuclear attacks against the whole middle east September 12 , they already had proof ! No-one in the democratic or communist world for that matter would give a rats ass about it . All that comes out of the middle east is violence and they are taught from day 1 to have the intent to harm others (seen the riots lately) !

I have to say th@ is the only thing you have said which carries any weight and terror in it...

now what you have said is that killing the population of the middle east is a good thing? cos if you did mean that I am gonna say what everyone here who has sense will think "Bob you are a stupid cunt" You say that no body would care- well except the millions of people who never did anything to harm us and who would be MURDERED as a result. I don't think you really undestand what we are faced with... we are faced with the destruction of our race (and I say OUR) so would you be rash if you thought th@ there was a 'middle-east-Bob' who WANTED TO BOMB YOU FOR EXPLOITING OIL, AND SLAVE LABOUR... don't believe me? look on your T.V, it will probably say 'made in Taiwan (or somewhere in the east)'- you get a cheap stuff and someone else is made poor and starving. It aint right, but it happens.

So if that person who is starving and homeless despite working 10 hours-per-day becomes as pissed off as you and decides to bomb your ass I supose you will say that it isn't fair? I don't call you stupid, I call you mis-informed. THE EAST HAS DONE SOME SERIOUS SHIT, BUT SO HAS AMERICA! IF WE ALL BOMBED OTHERS WHEN BAD THINGS HAPPEN WE'D ALL BE DEAD!

Maybe you were joking, but I hope if not you realise the consequences of what you said...
O and by the way... other countries would take action, cos America would have to go against the United Nations treaty, and if so would be held directly responsible and attacked as they deserve. There are some cunts out there who give the east a bad image (bin-laden etc...) but you can't make a steriotype. Also you are wrong about what comes out of the middle-east cos the pc u are using was probably made there, ur playstation will probably come from there, and a lot of clothing to... are Nintendo,Casio,Honda,Suzuki,Sony,etc.... all terrorists?

Hope u see what I mean!

(please post this despite the swearing, cos i only swore because of the topic mentioned... and I'm sorry this doesn't have n y thing to do with macs)

Peace man

Posted by: Benjamin on March 19, 2005 1:03 PM

The majority of merchandise in the world is made in china or taiwan (prob about 95%) . And i didnt mean asian countries.

You are right that the US wouldnt attack the middle east.
But we'll see what happens when halkida or however they spell it decides to blow up the eifel tower and place multiple car bombs in Beijing

Posted by: Bob on March 19, 2005 4:02 PM

I don't know if this technology is unique to Quicktime, but there is something called "Quicktime VR" which allows the creation of 'VR' images which can be rotated 360 degrees.

Sounds weird, but I used this for a section in a skate video I made,(if anyone here has seen the character select screen in Tony Hawk's Pro Skater you will know what I mean) and it turned out super-clean- I reckon it is worth it purely for that.

Although I have to agree that Apple should reduce the price of Quicktime, do they want people to but it?

Posted by: Benjamin on March 21, 2005 8:30 AM

Well, the true cost story is this: I have installed and serviced networks. After moving my customers from Windows-anything to mac-os-anything, their maintenance costs drop by 50 to 75 percent, because: (1) no viruses (2) no active-x security leaks (3) no spyware (4) no uncontrollable pop-ups (5) no norton anitvirus (5) no Internet Explorer, etc. etc. etc.. Now, XP is tons better than anything previous, but it's still way behind in total cost of ownership. Also. when you buy a Mac it comes with iLife. If you buy iLife later, the tools are tons better than any equivalent-cost tools on Widows. There are no performance equivalent tools on Windows. Nothing even close. I use both the Mac and the PC daily and know this is true. As a network installer I prefer to save by customers money and always recommend OS X.

Posted by: About MacOSX on March 21, 2005 2:00 PM

One more thing. Total cost of ownership is really the primary factor to consider. Mac software, especially the software developed by the former NeXt developers (OmniGroup, Stone, Apple, etc.) is tons easier to learn and use. It takes me less than a hour to get a new mac user up and producing. So, from my experience, the total cost of ownership is always less on the Mac, at least for law offices, film production companies and publishers. The PC is years behind and continues to mimic and Mac OS. I know lots of PC to Mac switches and no one who has switched back.

Posted by: About MacOSX on March 21, 2005 2:17 PM

This is such an immature thread. What's with this "we" thing? Is Apple a cult?

Posted by: on March 28, 2005 4:30 PM

How OS X(10.2.8-Jaguar & Even Puma @ 10.1.5) saved me money? Being able to use AppleWorks 6.2.9, as my primary WP, & able to convert them to MS Word & Excel Files, saves me over having to buy MS Office. Also, it taught me the lesson of having OS 9.2.2, available. As one who sends documents, that in order to save space, I use Classic's Simple Text Application, for word processing & simply cut 'n Paste my writings into an e-mail. For AppleWorks to work like MS Word & Excel, saves me money, on buying Office. In Jaguar, more choices like Abiword & Mellel, are available to me. Being a dedicated Mac User, who needs Microsoft's bloated products.

Posted by: Michael Leggett on March 28, 2005 9:56 PM

Bob, you do know that the Middle East is a part of Asia...don't you? Not only do you need a map, but a grammar lesson and some ethics classes as well.

Posted by: Anthony on March 29, 2005 8:19 PM

I have posted by retort to your comments made
on this thread

http://pcversusmac.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=622#622

Posted by: Rick on March 31, 2005 12:18 PM

I think it is hilarious giving this much attention to a company that has a whopping 5% of the world market share. Most of the mac followers are an interesting study in psychology when boasting about their favorite toy. At least Microsoft doesn't force you to buy their software built exclusively for (and packaged on) their hardware. Maybe, back in the late 1980's the macs were better, but today i think the reverse is true. Unless, 90% of the world is under Microsoft's mind control....muahahaha!

Posted by: Manny on April 7, 2005 7:58 PM

tiger is out, longhorn has removed winfs, the new filesystem. the os gui will be so complicated it will take another processor to run the gui.

Posted by: keith on May 31, 2005 9:47 AM

wow...

grow up Bob.

Posted by: on June 10, 2005 1:10 PM

FYI you can get free Mac programs to do what iLife does. Some of them are better than the iLife counterparts.

Posted by: a different Keith on July 16, 2005 5:47 PM

Interesting article. Lets postulate that its true. For the moment I wont argue with the article. The problem is that it leaves out a couple of windows costs.

1) Maintenance and yearly upgrades that are practically manditory. Microsoft has made a science of developing newer versions of software that are incompatible with previous versions. Try running Office 97 on XP and you will get an education.

2) Cost due to downtime spent figuring out just why the registry is corrupted and how to fix it. Meanwhile wondering why the machine wont boot after you have supposedly fixed it. I could go on and on but at my hourly rate the difference in price is about 4 hours of work. My windows machines took FAR FAR FAR more time than that out of my life.

3) Cost due to viruses, spyware, hacks and exploits of Microsoft Swiss Cheese Security(tm).

Capital investments are nothing compared to recurring expeditures. Mac just murders windows there.

Posted by: Robert Simmons on September 27, 2005 3:32 AM

Bob, pretty much all you've done so far is use ad-hominem arguments against other people who have posted in support of macs. I know your education level must be low to the point that you have no clue what "ad-hominem" means, so I'll tell you: it is using off-topic or unrelated arguments in your defense in an effort to make the other person "look bad." Like, for example, when someone makes a post in defense of MacOS, you respond with, "Oh, yeah? well you can't spell!" or "Oh, yeah? Well, you... you sound like President Bush! So there!" You haven't really presented a valid argument against them, you've merely pointed out the minor flaws in their typing, and the fact that you have a problem with George Bush. You try to stay alive by clinging onto the anti-mac arguments ("yeah, what he said!") presented by other users, rather than formulating a valid argument yourself. Once you get to college (if you get that far) you will hopefully understand this when you're in classes requiring a proper use of logic, because the professors will nail you if you don't. As for now, you've made yourself look pathetic.

As for your argument against software, that was the worst of all. Like it has been stated above, software isn't free just because you can pirate it. If you were using a mac, you could pirate mac software too. However, you WOULD have been right if you had said that mac software is much too expensive, because it is indeed far more expensive than pc software. This cannot be denied, especially for games. Hardware, especially video cards, are ridiculously expensive for the mac, up to 3 times the price. Of course you can flash a pc card to work in a mac, but it usually is tricky and is faulty when practiced. The overall cost of hardware for mac is insane. That, my friends, is a legitimate reason NOT to buy a mac. I myself love mac and operate from a USED G4, because I am not willing to pay for a new one. I do most of my stuff on it, I don't play a lot of graphic-intensive games and don't use a lot of 3d-software which I couldn't afford anyway (and I'm not a bloody pirate, I am for the preservation of ethics not the destruction of them). I agree that Mac OS X is far superior to windows in many aspects as well as to Linux, mainly for its simplicity. (Linux is too darn complicated!) True, Mac OS X is very low-cost compared to windows, but the trick is you have to buy a mac to run it! So I never blame anyone who would rather use windows over a mac. I am in no way supporting your claim, Bob, so don't even try using any part of my argument as your own crutch. I think you're an idiot like the rest of the people here. (Oh, I spelled idiot right. Aren't you happy?)

Posted by: Jim on October 16, 2005 11:22 AM

JESUS...I thought i might drop a line or two and check this place out and see how its going ...But HOLY CRAP !!!

i made those comments almost 10 months ago to the day (Jan 24) and your still bitching about it..dude your worse than my ex girlfriend

Im not even can start a war with you Jim , because you are so blantantly such a mac fanboy that is unaware of the concepts and fundamentals of arguing.He said , She said , its called rebutting , a common tactic in argumenting.

why are ppl here so afraid of pirating a bit of software ."I'm for the preservation of ethics". From that i take it you're all for "save your seed for marriage" crap.

Yes we might be all idiots here , but you're the 1 commenting on a 10 month old post

Posted by: Bob on October 22, 2005 10:53 PM

Ok, this is getting out of hand....of course, when was it ever IN hand, huh?

I am a software developer (mostly games but a few others as well) and I own a few computers. Both Mac and Windows (98, 2000, and XP). But I love my mac more than my PCs cause my pc's blue screen every day... and I only installed Visual Studio 6 on them. I've modded my mac to hell and back (at least I like to think so) and IT NEVER CRASHED in the 1 year I've owned it! The only reasons I keep the PCs is because, I'm a Visual Basic 6 developer (Which, unfortunally, is owned by M$), and the games I develop are only for Windows.... for now anyways.

...but who really cares WHAT I have.

The orginial reason I'm posting is that.. "who cares". This kind of topic is meaningless because it all boils down to a matter of personal opinion. A topic like this (that it ended up being) is usually banned from most places because of.... well, if you've been reading the whole thing, you should know that answer by now. (Religion topics are worse, but not by much).

I know it's been almost a year since this topic was started, but I think it's time to let go.

I know that this might be a bit much for some people to understand (not gonna say who though), but I figured that I should just say SOMETHING on this as a person that was on both sides (Paying/warez) at one time.

Oh, and Bob (as well as any other people that use illegal software/licenses), you try creating a piece of software that you sell and not see any money whatsoever because idiots like you hack or download it. True, this hasn't happened to me...yet, but I know I'd be really pissed, and poor at the same time.

Sorry for the rant, but I felt like I had to say something.

Posted by: WindFox on November 8, 2005 11:39 AM

yeah lets leave bob alone, he doesn't know what an ad-hominem is, he must have a tiny penis. I've got a pc using freind just like him. On questioned why he hates macs he never gets further than "macs are just wank" or "the net runs shit on macs". Any one else with a similar pc freind post underneath. I PREDICT A RIOT!!!!!

Posted by: elliot on November 23, 2005 8:14 AM

WOW!, I don't know what to call this board--Bitchers.com or Whine.com. So many cheap SOB's who look for Freebies. Everyone like something for nothing, but remember "There's NO Free lunch".
If you're not happy about paying for Mac extras then go to
WIN-BLOZE and be happy [haha].
Don't bother responding to my post as I will not be back to read the whining garbage.

Posted by: Bob on November 25, 2005 3:47 PM

Well, wow... this was definitely an interesting thread.

To start out, I am a Linux and Mac OS X (Tiger) geek. I have over 15 years in the Windows World and of course have to use it at work.. which to me is the way it is! I just like coming home to a non-Windows environment and the MacOS is my preference. I have bought PC hardware recently and it runs Linux when I do. If people are dis-satisfied with the software offerings on either MacOS X or Windows (any flavor), there are tons of freeware and shareware applications that are as good or sometimes even better than the offerings of commercial houses and of course, the cost is MUCH less.

I have found no problem finding software for my Macintosh and in one case where I could not find an eqivalent shareware/freeware alternative (forgot the title, that's how important it ultimately was)... I got around it.

I would like to know to the person who posted about the TextPad replacement on Mac what software they found :-) I use BBEdit and it is great, but it also was pricey -- yes it can be pirated, but they are fairly on top of it and so far I had to shell out the dollars once.

Anyhow, the Amiga was cool in its day and it is making a comeback though the user community is small and devoted... not unlike us Macintosh folk, but more willing to innovate and re-engineer than we are. The Amiga users I know (there is even a Amiga User Group that still meets locally, I attended and was the fourth person in the room), have re-engineered and programmed their own applications in order to keep using their machine and a lot of them actually are still happy with their machines. The software can even still be had, though I personally would not pay $150 USD for a browser :-)

God forbid that the Mac ever does go the way of the Amiga... if so, I feel that the community would band together much like the Amiga community if the platform is worth all that. Personally, if Apple went out business tomorrow (not likely looking at current stock and quarterly earnings... I would be using Linux).

This folks is my $.02 worth and it should be taken for what it is, my opinion! I do think QT Pro should be free though!

Posted by: mike on January 3, 2006 12:09 PM